Referees: The good, the bad, the ugly!

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

tikki - deliberate handball should ONLY be a red card if it denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity.  Generally speaking,

-there's only 1 defender (usually the keeper) - aside from the one committing the foul - between the attacker and the goal (if a defender is running across and is able to block a shot if the attacker takes it in the next step, then that suffices as being able to defend the goal),

-must be heading directly towards goal (not across goal, not over towards the corner flag),

-and the ball must be under the control of an attacker (or there's a ball coming which should be easy to control...say, a corner when a defender holds the shirt of an attacker to prevent him heading a ball, when it's an easy ball to control and he's only got one defender to beat if he can head it, that's still a red card even though the ball isn't under control).

-distance is also relevant - while it's possible to get sent off for this offence when you're 70 yards away from the goal you're attacking (think a lone attacker on a counterattack from a corner), you need to consider how likely the are to get chased down.  A 16A player should be able to cover this distance, with the ball at his feet, at near full pace - also, such a player can score from 30 yards out.  An U/12 player, this becomes very unlikely, and this is a consideration.

This is a MANDATORY card.  If an U/10F player stuck out his hand and blocked a shot on goal, he must be sent off.  The ref has no discretion over this.  Same deal if he mistimes his tackle and trips the U/10F player as he's got a 1on1 with the keeper. 

Sometimes the ref may be able to stretch whether or not he thinks there was an obvious goalscoring opportunity, but if it's clear, he has no choice.  Referees can sometimes bend certain laws, but there are limits.

You are generally right that the higher grades are dealt with stricter, for various reasons - although I'm pretty strict on dissent and certain types of unsporting behaviour on lower grades/younger kids (in some ways, harder games need more leniency).

Sorry for the lengthy post - bad habit

So unless an obvious goalscoring opportunity was denied, there should not have been a red card.  A possible yellow card if a good attack was broken up - that's the sort of thing where you'd probably be more lenient with the younger ages or lower grades (you can tell if he just stopped and picked it up because he got confused.  Doesn't mean he doesn't get sent off, if need be, but if you CAN skew it to keep him on the part you normally would).

Can I ask you exactly what happened?

 

[tikky]

Agree 100% in bad sportsmanship, stick your hand out, suffer consqeuences!
However a C grade player who (I can only guess) was unaware he was outside box (could be a good actor).


Another question (Thanks a bunch for speedy reply)
On obvious goal scoring opportunity.
In Premier League 1st grade, a one on one, the striker should score
But watching All Age 6 (for an example), I see some woeful finishing.
Same in 10G's (or F's), no disrespect to the kids, good on them for running around having a go.
Could you as a ref be confident that a lower All Age/lower grade player would convert the oppurtunity?
Might sometimes be more difficult refereeing lower grades, and lower ages?

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

tikky - why exactly did he pick the ball up?  Was the player in question a keeper? And was he sent off?

If you're still not sure on the decision made I'm happy to discuss the incident in greater detail - you can PM me if you don't want to do it in public.

You're right that we have to deal with good actors, might be partly why we sometimes appear to be a little too harsh.

Good question on the OGSO, and yes, the grade IS relevant, to some extent.

You need to remember that it's all about an obvious goalscoring OPPORTUNITY.  Sure, left foot larry might have made a run from the back line up to the fronts, and he could have the worst shot in the game, but if he's 15 yards out from goal, only the keeper to beat and is brought down...well, the important thing was the OPPORTUNITY.  He may or may not be reliable at finishing, but it's the opportunity that's important.

Say a player is 35 yards out from goal, towards the sideline, heading towards goal, and is foulled as he's taking a shot.  No other defender between the guy committing the foul and the goal, aside from the keeper.  First grade?  Clear DOGSO, red card.  They can easily score from there. AA6?  Well, there's still a fair chance of them scoring, I'd still think of it as a red card.  U/10?  Almost no chance of the shot even reaching goal - I'd caution if it was a deliberate foul, but that's it.

If the player is running for goal, then that's a little different - is he going to get within shooting range before another defender is able to intervene between him and the goal?  If running, then any age is probably worthy of a red card in this case (of course, it's easy to say it behind a keyboard, sometimes it's hard to remember what 'feels' right out on the field though).

Say there's a corner to red, and a blue striker waiting halfway up the field, on halfway, with a lone defender.  No other defenders withing 20 yards.  Ball is cleared up to him, he turns, run towards goal, and is foulled.  A first grade player could easily get within shooting distance before another defender could catch up, so red card.  AA6?  Hmm, maybe - to be completely honest, that may come down to the individual player (if he's 130kg, was puffing at the kickoff and hasn't broken past a light jog, then it may be different to if the striker was the quick, fit 18yr old).  U/10?  No chance of getting there, not a red card.  Of course, if the defenders were closer - say, another defender on the same line, none of them would be a RC because they'd get to the striker before he can close to shooting distance.

Does that partly answer your question - and also highlight just how much has to be considered when making some of these decisions?  Very little is Black and white!!

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

Haha, I remember one game I reffed at KC, I was the ref and there was a similar situation, ball got kicked out, then the parents abused me because I didn't do anything about them not giving the ball back to the opposition

Kinda the opposite situation there.  Interesting decision nonetheless - the ref should only intervene if, say, your team said you'd give it back then don't - then it should've been a caution as well.  Otherwise, he's better off noticing that the player throwing the ball into play didn't deliver it from behind his head ;-)

See, it's because of decisions like this that I was a referee's inspector when I still lived on the coast.  Though even then, we can't do much if we don't see it!  Sigh

 

[CCRef]

Davo,

Your comment above interests me.  I read all posts on this site but rarely respond because a lot is subjective, but this is a clear breach of the laws of the game.  I would be interested to find out the details of the grade, ground and time of the match so I could follow up.

We had 90 new referees on the park last weekend doing their first games so maybe the error came from there.  If I can get the information I will ensure it is passed on and the person concerned educated.

Regards
Darren Sprod
Chairman
Central Coast Football Referees

 

[girljean]

Was at Pluim yet again tonight only to see a number of serious problems with the refereeing.
Firstly the Umina goal keeper was unjustly sent off. A Gosford attacker came though on the keeper with sprigs up taking out the keeper who fell on the ground with the Gosford player on top. As he was getting up the Gosfrod player seemed to be stepping on the legs of the keeper who pushed out with his foot obviously to protect himself. The referee was at the halfway line,  40 meters behind play when the tackle occured. We all expected the keeper to be awarded the free kick as the tackle by the Gosford player could have broken the keeper's leg.
Instead the referee sent the keeper off and awarded a penalty to Gosford. No action was taken against the Gosford player for the sprigs up, over the ball tackle. If the keeper was sent off for protecting himself surely the Gosford player should have been sent for the tackle Either R10A, over the ball tackle or R10B, reckless tackle are the send off offences which should have been invoked.
Saw the keepers leg after the game when he was showing it to some other people. He had a 7-8 cm gash where the Gosford player had got him. Overheard him saying he was lucky that the shin pad had prevented worse injury.
My husband is a retired Sydney referee, due to injury, but keeps up with the rules as he coaches a team and my son is an active referee. Thus we have a good knowledge of the rules.
Do not usually criticise referees but some of the decisions tonight were bad.
Later in the match a goal was scored. The ball quite obviously crossed the line and was then cleared by a defender. The referee looked long and hard at the linesman who did not signal. The referee then allowed play to proceed without awarding the goal. It seemed apparent that the linesman did not know what to do.
Then there was the incident where a Umina player was fouled by one player just outside the penalty box. The Umina player although off balance kept going into the box and was brought down by a second player who was last line of defence. The referee awarded a free kick outside the box and could be heard telling the players he was playing the first foul. No cards were issued in that case.
Fortunately these incidents did not affect the final result of the game. Our club are very strong against abuse of referees but when you see flagrant instances of poor and incorrect decisions as we did tonight such abuse is only to be expected.

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

girljean - the ref can only call what he can see, obviously you and the ref saw different things.  Perhaps the referee's view was more accurate, perhaps he saw something you didn't, or maybe he just didn't have the best view of play, thus can only call what he can see.  The angle you see an incident at makes a helluva lot of difference - I'm not arguing with you about what happened, not at all, but from your incident its also to see how a different angle may have seen a fair, but hard challenge, but a keeper kick out at a player.

Ideally, this is the sort of incident where a glance at the AR should indicate what the ref should do - though if the AR is inexperienced then they're generally not going to be much help in these cases, so the ref is forced to make a call from a bad position.  Usually he'll still get it right, not always.

Gashes in the leg mean nothing, they occur from fair challenges - 2 players kicking at each other's feet, studs are going to find skin occasionally.

(Man I hate the fact that CCF have a send-off code for a reckless tackle - reckless tackles are only yellow cards, not red.  The codes are an absolute joke and have been written with blatant ignorance of the LOTG. /rant)

As for the goal/non goal - perhaps there was a sliver of ball still on the line?  There's quite a bit of ball that can cross the line with it still being in.  If what you say is accurate and the AR didn't know what to do, then hopefully the ref would talk to him about it after the match (ideally it should be covered in pregame instructions, but not enough refs give those).  I've had plenty of cases where people will swear blind and blue that the ball was 2 yards over the line, but not even close (gave 2 cautions for dissent over that very reason at Futsal tonight)


As for the next incident - if a player is foulled, then foulled again while the ref's waiting to see if there's advantage (as in this case), you should go for the 2nd foul (essentially, you've played advantage from the first foul).  If the first is in the box, and the 2nd is out, play the first foul.  Sometimes a player will be off balance from the foul, and receive a slight touch from another player that sends him to his feet, in that case you go back to the first challenge, but if the ref saw 2 fouls he should've played the 2nd.  The player had no obvious goalscoring opportunity at the first foul, so no cards is probably 'correct' (given that he's gone to the wrong foul).

The funny thing about abusing a referee - if he's having an off day (happens to the best of us), or he isn't confident, then abuse if probably just going to put him off his game even further...

 

[luvsoccer]

Cap Gus.Please confirm you are not a dupe for local referees>

I was, due to current economicic conditions, able to get to last Wednesday night's game at Pluim. Had you been there and saw what happened how could youstick up for referee. Were you "Gus" there?
The only thing Unc Gus said was true,was that a referee can only see what he sees. My answer to this is why what he, the referee, not in position to see what was going on, instead of up to 40 mtrs behind.
A question to Referees association. Every referee is, by what I have heard, isw supposed to pass a fitness test. Too many 1st grade refereees seem to be too oer weight, slow and out of position. Why? Do your referee's have a concience when they recieve thie fees?
Seems unfair players are being sent off due to referee deficiciencies , particularly in Premier League, the showpiece of Football on the Coast.
Also saw oter matters raised. Third goal to Umina was surely a goal. I was just returning from gents and in line with Goal line when it happened. Whole of the ball was at least 12cm over the line.
Whilst it would be easy to be blame the liney reposibility must come back to the Referees Assn for not training their new members propoerly.
I believe that responses by Capt Gus,  CCF and Referees Assn are appopriate. Hopefully...................,

 

[CCRef]

Cap Gus.Please confirm you are not a dupe for local referees>

I was, due to current economicic conditions, able to get to last Wednesday night's game at Pluim. Had you been there and saw what happened how could youstick up for referee. Were you "Gus" there?
The only thing Unc Gus said was true,was that a referee can only see what he sees. My answer to this is why what he, the referee, not in position to see what was going on, instead of up to 40 mtrs behind.
A question to Referees association. Every referee is, by what I have heard, isw supposed to pass a fitness test. Too many 1st grade refereees seem to be too oer weight, slow and out of position. Why? Do your referee's have a concience when they recieve thie fees?
Seems unfair players are being sent off due to referee deficiciencies , particularly in Premier League, the showpiece of Football on the Coast.
Also saw oter matters raised. Third goal to Umina was surely a goal. I was just returning from gents and in line with Goal line when it happened. Whole of the ball was at least 12cm over the line.
Whilst it would be easy to be blame the liney reposibility must come back to the Referees Assn for not training their new members propoerly.
I believe that responses by Capt Gus,  CCF and Referees Assn are appopriate. Hopefully...................,

luvsoccer,

I am not going to comment on the individual incidents in a particular game as they are subjective and I wasn't there.  What I am able to confirm is that 7 Referees in Group 1 (they cover Premier League First grade) must pass 2 fitness test each season to maintain that grouping.  The Fitness tests are designed for Park level football.

They also inspected on 3 occasions each year to ensure they are maintaining the standard required for Premier League.

As for new referees they are trainied to a basic level and then over the following several years recieve additional training to increase their skills.  Everyone must start somewhere.  This year we have added 5 development officers to our ranks who are specifically charged with providing practical training and advice to new referees as they start their career.  This is something that was instigated at the start of the season as we seen a gap in the training of new referees.

The A/R's appointed on Wednesday night were not new first year referees and we have a policy of not using 1st Year referees on any 1st or Reserve grade Fixture unless no other referees are available. 

Once again I am happy to discuss with anyone or any club any issues and ways to better inprove the standard of refereeing on the Central Coast and my email address is chairman@ccfootballref.com.au.  I am happy to have an open forum with anyone or any group on the subject as any open feedback can only improve our service to the game.  In saying that referees, like anyone else, will never be perfect and will always make errors as we are human.  Our job is to minimise the amount of errors we make. 

In saying that I am not passing comment on what happened on Wednesday night, except to say the officials on that evening have the FULL support of our organisation.

Regards
Darren Sprod
Chairman
Central Coast Football Referees

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

Cap Gus.Please confirm you are not a dupe for local referees>

I was, due to current economicic conditions, able to get to last Wednesday night's game at Pluim. Had you been there and saw what happened how could youstick up for referee. Were you "Gus" there?
The only thing Unc Gus said was true,was that a referee can only see what he sees. My answer to this is why what he, the referee, not in position to see what was going on, instead of up to 40 mtrs behind.
A question to Referees association. Every referee is, by what I have heard, isw supposed to pass a fitness test. Too many 1st grade refereees seem to be too oer weight, slow and out of position. Why? Do your referee's have a concience when they recieve thie fees?
Seems unfair players are being sent off due to referee deficiciencies , particularly in Premier League, the showpiece of Football on the Coast.
Also saw oter matters raised. Third goal to Umina was surely a goal. I was just returning from gents and in line with Goal line when it happened. Whole of the ball was at least 12cm over the line.
Whilst it would be easy to be blame the liney reposibility must come back to the Referees Assn for not training their new members propoerly.
I believe that responses by Capt Gus,  CCF and Referees Assn are appopriate. Hopefully...................,

Easy on luvsoccer, if you read my post I merely raised a few possible reasons why things appeared as they appeared - or if the wrong decision was made, then why it may have been.  Just because I'm not reaching for the pitchforks and torches with you doesn't mean I'm going to take the referee's side either.  I don't see any problem with possible explanations, do you?

No, I wasn't there.  That's why I haven't offered my opinion on the events, merely a few ideas.

For me, as a referee's inspector, the reason's more important.  Naturally, I'm also well aware of how often people will carry on about incidents when the referee was 100% correct (apparently coaches have the best view of when the ball crosses the goal line, or when a player is or isn't offside), hence I'm sure as hell not going to sit here and say 'yeah, you're right.  Let's go after the ref with pitchforks'.  Like it or not, the referee is right a helluva lot more than the spectators on the sideline are.  Sometimes the spectators are right, but usually is isn't the case.  Spend a bit of time refereeing and listening to the sort of things you cop abuse over and you'll see what I mean.  So forgive me if I'm going to take a more balanced approach, offer a few possibilities and let the people who were there draw their own conclusions.  Some people like to have an idea of why things may go a bit haywire.

As for your criticism of First grade referees - well, fitness and positioning is part of the inspection, and first grade referees go through at least 2 a year.  Only one part of the form though - we're only supposed to be particularly concerned with positioning if it causes a problem.  And there's a certain amount of luck required in spotting that - I've inspected referees who barely moved past the centre circle, but had such a slow, dead boring game that they got every decision 100% correct.

I was a first grade ref myself, and I consider myself one of the fitter ones out there, but there were certainly times when I'd be caught out of position, for various reasons.  Occasionally this would have a significant impact on the game too...


Positioning is only one element of refereeing - overall, these guys get to these positions because they've performed best on their inspections - naturally availability of referees is also an issue.

Ideally we'd inspect every referee every match, but that isn't going to happen.  But then again, you'd also need to consider that every referee has an off day, or will sometimes be caught out of position.  Still, our number of inspectors has increased significantly in the past few years, though not all are utilised, for various resons.

Ball over the goal line?  Ok, I'll take your word for it that you were right in line.  Maybe the AR was out of position, or perhaps his view was unsighted (sometimes you can be stuck with a body between you and the ball and can't really tell if it's out.  Again, I had one of those at Futsal the other night.  Fortunately there wasn't a goal involved).  If the former, then most assistants will realise they've stuffed up (if they were just being lazy) and try to improve. 

As for the fitness test though, the term 'test' implies that there's some sort of challenge involved.....  Well, in years past all you had to do was turn up.  These days you do actually have to perform to a minimum standard, but the bar is set quite low.  It's more of a formality than anything else. 

I can accept that it's unfair when a player is sent off incorrectly - though what else do you propose?  No matter what level you play at, this is still going to occur.  Part of the human element of soccer means you have an individual making instant decisions on highly subjective situations from a single (and sometimes, not very good - and not just because the referee's lazy; all it takes it a player to turn a particular way and you can't see what's happening) viewpoint.

 

[Kareem]

My answer to this is why what he, the referee, not in position to see what was going on, instead of up to 40 mtrs behind.
A

I was a first grade ref myself, and I consider myself one of the fitter ones out there, but there were certainly times when I'd be caught out of position, for various reasons.  Occasionally this would have a significant impact on the game too...


Positioning is only one element of refereeing - overall, these guys get to these positions because they've performed best on their inspections - naturally availability of referees is also an issue.

Only a handful of refs IMHO are more fit than me on the coast. That said I have been caught out in 15-16s game 30-40m behind play. Usually for a simple reason
Counter Attack

I wasnt at the game- may i please ask you, was it a counter attack? It sounds, as you imply GK came out for ball (assuming one on one).
If so then its perfectly good reason for ref to be off the pace

 

[Redline]

I don't know who it was, but we had a ref in our first game of the season proper...Killarney Vale vs Woy Woy MAA6 @ Killarney...he was fantastic. I would be happy to have him every game. He was fair, he was consistent, he didn't brook any crap from players..he warned the captains up fron that back talk would get 1 warning then a yellow...and he delivered on that as well...he gave two players yellow cards for back chat, after warning them, and he then gave one of them another yellow for a nasty studs up tackle. He was fantastic.

Then we had a guy last week, away to Budgewoi, BOTH teams were abusing him because he was so disgracefully inconsistent, that he was consistently inconsistent.

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

Well at least he was consistent

 

[Jolly_Roger]

Without question, refereeing is a tough job.

Regardless of whether its football, afl, nrl, or any other sport for that matter, the referee is the only person in attendance on game day who has to maintain 100% focus on whats going on for the duration of a game. This focus has to be maintained even if fatigue starts to set in. Switch off for a second, get momentarily distracted, have your view impared by a player, and an incident can be missed where a penalty or worse should of been awarded. Its a difficult job.

Even players on the field dont have to maintain the level of concentration on the field that refs do. The spectators on the side line certainly dont either.

I am not sticking up for the referees, just acknowledging that their roles are difficult, and the concentration required to perform the role for the game duration is not easily maintained. Especially at the speeds in which modern day games can be played

 

[Wilson]

just a quick question.. premier league football on the coast is supposed to be amateur? Why is it that the only paid people on the ground are the ones that dont train regularly?

 

[voice of reason]

just a quick question.. premier league football on the coast is supposed to be amateur? Why is it that the only paid people on the ground are the ones that dont train regularly?

You are tarring everyone with the same brush - go around and ask a few about their training....

 

[Wilson]

just a quick question.. premier league football on the coast is supposed to be amateur? Why is it that the only paid people on the ground are the ones that dont train regularly?

You are tarring everyone with the same brush - go around and ask a few about their training....

When do the ref's train? Do they start mid January with pre-season?? Do they train twice a week as a collective group???

 

[CCRef]

just a quick question.. premier league football on the coast is supposed to be amateur? Why is it that the only paid people on the ground are the ones that dont train regularly?

You are tarring everyone with the same brush - go around and ask a few about their training....

When do the ref's train? Do they start mid January with pre-season?? Do they train twice a week as a collective group???

The Group 1 Referees do not train as a group as they all live at different ends of the Central Coast.  They are required to maintain an appropriate level of Fitness for Park Premier Football and are required to PASS two fitness tests per year to remain in that group. 

Each referee will do his own training.  As one of the members of this group I can tell you that I do 2-3 sessions in the Gym each week to maintain my fitness level to the required standard.  As you go down the ranks the fitness requirement becomes less and less.

The 1st Grade referees are also inspected on three occasions each season on matches and are required to recive a pass mark on Fitness as one of the criteria.

Hope this helps your query

Darren Sprod
CC Football Referee

 

[dibo]

I'm changing the damn thread title. That apostrophe makes me cringe every time.

 

[voice of reason]

I'm changing the damn thread title. That apostrophe makes me cringe every time.

Me two..(too, to?)