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The end is nigh - impending doom - Moss out etc thread

the end is nigh and Moss is to blame

  • yes

    Votes: 35 57.4%
  • no

    Votes: 20 32.8%
  • fence

    Votes: 6 9.8%

  • Total voters
    61

Tassiemariner

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't want to be the ccausing any dressing room unrest, the fine system Hutcho has in place in very... exhaustive.

Check out the video posted today on CCM facebook page with all the fines. (Fingers crossed that takes you directly there)

Personal favourites are 'Can't say Marcel Seip - $5' and 'Going to Asia on loan - $100 per month'
 

gull

Well-Known Member
Don't buy into all the doom and gloom but am still baffled by Mossy's selections. I really don't understand why a professional footballer can't play the occasional 2 games a week? Hutch is one of our older players and seems to back up every time we play 2 games a week so don't buy into the "resting players" theory. Unless they have a knock. For an FFA cup semi i would expect that we would play our best team so why did we have Rosey at CB when as far as i know Poscolliero and Boz were fit, Sim at left back when Rosey or Neill(who was great against Perth) were fit. Kim starting ahead of Fitz/Tricky/Caceres when he has been pretty dismal.The back 4 were basically all different from any game yet this season and would struggle against any side yet alone the current best team in the comp. Tricky, Caceres, Poz, Fitzy should all have started. I'd really like us to pick close to our best 11 each week instead of all this rotation. All i can think is that we are happy to tinker with the side in order to come good 10 games into the season and make a push for a top 4 position in the 2nd half of the season. Mossy maybe is using the first 7 games or so to decide what his best 11 is and give everyone a chance. Danger is if we lose 7 or so on the trot which is looking increasingly likely then the pressure mounts, confidence drops and the fans get paranoid! I think we'll come good but it may be too late by then.

Yeah fully agree.

Surely the pre-season is the time to work out our best team, and then play most of them as a regular unit when the comp games start?

I know we always start slowly, but the lack of cohesion this year is scary.
 

Wombat

Well-Known Member
All good mate. We were yellow yesterday, we're yellow today, we'll be yellow tomorrow too.

Sorry again Dibo. .....it's not your fault why we are playing so badly.....and if anything I respect you more for sticking up for the boys when they are struggling..
 

neverwozza

Well-Known Member
I think our imports just aren't up to scratch this year. Swap ours with Adelaide's or Brisbane's of prior years and we look much much better. I don't know if its a funding issue or Mossy just doesn't have the contacts like the other managers.

Also I'm not sure why a lot of forumites are picking on the ex state leaguers because all of them look well and truly up to it for mine and we need good even squad numbers for the schedule that we seem to cop every year. We just need the extra quality that a decent overseas player will bring like Broich, Berisha, Thirrio? etc
 

localpom

Well-Known Member
I think our imports just aren't up to scratch this year. Swap ours with Adelaide's or Brisbane's of prior years and we look much much better. I don't know if its a funding issue or Mossy just doesn't have the contacts like the other managers.

Also I'm not sure why a lot of forumites are picking on the ex state leaguers because all of them look well and truly up to it for mine and we need good even squad numbers for the schedule that we seem to cop every year. We just need the extra quality that a decent overseas player will bring like Broich, Berisha, Thirrio? etc
To be fair to Vernes we are still yet to see how good he will be. I think he might come through as a quality player based on the little i have seen of him. He has some quality, and also importantly seems to have the right attitude. Mane also i think will do better once he has adjusted, if anything he looks like he is trying too hard, not sure where the perceived "laziness" is. Both these players haven't had alot of football over the last year or so and they will get better. Kim though.....not sure, i hope he toughens up as i think it's mainly a mental thing with him.
 

BrisRecky

I'm an idiot savant without the pesky savant bit
funding issue?...we get the same cap as everybody else dont we?....I've said it before, the owner probably spent most of the money on bulldozers and architects instead of mossys wants and needs...and no Im not sticking up for Mossy
 

Capt. Awesome

Well-Known Member
Th
funding issue?...we get the same cap as everybody else dont we?....I've said it before, the owner probably spent most of the money on bulldozers and architects instead of mossys wants and needs...and no Im not sticking up for Mossy
The clubs that have enough money for 2 marquees end having spare cap money for the rest of the team so as a result can get better quality non marquee players.
 

Gratis

Well-Known Member
To be fair to Vernes we are still yet to see how good he will be. I think he might come through as a quality player based on the little i have seen of him. He has some quality, and also importantly seems to have the right attitude. Mane also i think will do better once he has adjusted, if anything he looks like he is trying too hard, not sure where the perceived "laziness" is. Both these players haven't had alot of football over the last year or so and they will get better. Kim though.....not sure, i hope he toughens up as i think it's mainly a mental thing with him.
that's about my thoughts also
 

style_cafe

Well-Known Member
To be fair to Vernes we are still yet to see how good he will be. I think he might come through as a quality player based on the little i have seen of him. He has some quality, and also importantly seems to have the right attitude. Mane also i think will do better once he has adjusted, if anything he looks like he is trying too hard, not sure where the perceived "laziness" is. Both these players haven't had alot of football over the last year or so and they will get better. Kim though.....not sure, i hope he toughens up as i think it's mainly a mental thing with him.

I`m no doctor but I`d be fairly confident in saying "we`re not going to fix mental issues in one season".:popcorn:
 

Capt. Awesome

Well-Known Member
A serious question. What exactly is Moss trying to do purely from a technical football perspective?

He has been stating a lot lately that he has changed the entire system and its going to take time for it to work. He compared us to Adelaide at the start of last season and also to the period when Arnie first took over the Mariners saying that it took WeeMac 6 months to get used to that style..

So what is he trying to do? I'd love it if anyone has any analysis on this in regards to formation and style. Because if I can see where we are meant to be heading I'll be able to see if we are progressing.
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
From Arnie's time, there have been are three formations that we use at different phases. One to play out, one in possession higher up the park and one in defence. They're very set and predictable, so everybody knew their jobs. Moss is adding to that with different options in attack and defence and changing slightly the way we play out. Not everyone knows the roles 100% yet, and squad rotation isn't really helping (though it will help us in the last month of the season when we're again going to be playing lots of games with limited recovery and everyone will need to know their roles).

Playing out from the keeper:
------------------1------------------
------3-----------6-----------4------
--2----------8----------10--------5--
------7-----------9-----------11-----

Dates back to Arnie's era. In past years, option 1 has been to try to play to 3, 6 or 4 directly and have them able to turn, face forward and get us going up the park. With Mat Ryan, this got mixed up with occasionally hitting pinpoint passes to 7 or 11 on halfway to then attack with a quick counter.

What's new (relatively) is that because Reddy doesn't have Ryan's feet, we've taken that option out, and we are much more rigid with the short game. It's more difficult to play and we're mucking it up sometimes, but Brisbane do it well and have three championships to show for it and Adelaide do it too.

I think Mossy wants us to persist - Reddy is no less naturally talented with his feet than Galekovich, there's no reason why it can't work for us. We want the opponent to come on and press high so we can pass in behind, but we're not getting it quite right.

Ball in possession higher up the park:
------------------1------------------
-------------3----------4------------
--2---------------------6---------5--
-------------8-----------------------
------------------10-----------------
------7-----------------------11-----
------------------9------------------

Again, same as with Arnie. Hutch leans left, Monty leans right, we try to get fullbacks linking with wingers and 8 and 10 offer quick wall-passes to open up the flanks as we get behind the opposing fullbacks. Hutch is the quarterback - he steers the team around.

Yesterday when Monty was replaced by Trifiro, 8 moved higher:
------------------1------------------
-------------3----------4------------
--2---------------6---------------5--
-------------8---------10------------
------7-----------------------11-----
------------------9------------------

This changed the way they had to defend us, and gave us a little more flexibility. I can see us using it again.

Defensive block:
------------------1------------------
--2----------3----------4---------5--
--7----------8----------6--------11--
------9-----------------------10-----

Same as with Arnie. We don't give a flying if the opposing CBs have the ball unless they're actually advancing up the park with it. 9 and 10 get interested if the ball goes to the fullback. Say it goes to their left back: 9 will close off the bail out pass to the CB and 7 and 8 squeeze in to get them to cough the ball up.

What's new is that we've been changing this up occasionally with a really high press to force errors:

------------------1------------------
-------------3----------4------------
--2----------8----------6---------5--
------7-----------10----------11-----
------------------9------------------

I think the reason is simple - it's easiest to win the ball back within 5 seconds of losing it. If we can press hard and win it, we will, but if we can't we drop back into the block. City exposed this a few times where they were able to take advantage of broken play to get in behind 2 and 5 particularly, but we also got some chances out of it.

In all, with the change to playing out and the change to how we press, we're actually playing a less controlling, tight game than under Arnie, but looking to trust ourselves to either pass our way into positions to score or steal opportunities through pressure. We're going to have to move the ball better though, and make fewer mistakes.
 

Capt. Awesome

Well-Known Member
From Arnie's time, there have been are three formations that we use at different phases. One to play out, one in possession higher up the park and one in defence. They're very set and predictable, so everybody knew their jobs. Moss is adding to that with different options in attack and defence and changing slightly the way we play out. Not everyone knows the roles 100% yet, and squad rotation isn't really helping (though it will help us in the last month of the season when we're again going to be playing lots of games with limited recovery and everyone will need to know their roles).

Playing out from the keeper:
------------------1------------------
------3-----------6-----------4------
--2----------8----------10--------5--
------7-----------9-----------11-----

Dates back to Arnie's era. In past years, option 1 has been to try to play to 3, 6 or 4 directly and have them able to turn, face forward and get us going up the park. With Mat Ryan, this got mixed up with occasionally hitting pinpoint passes to 7 or 11 on halfway to then attack with a quick counter.

What's new (relatively) is that because Reddy doesn't have Ryan's feet, we've taken that option out, and we are much more rigid with the short game. It's more difficult to play and we're mucking it up sometimes, but Brisbane do it well and have three championships to show for it and Adelaide do it too.

I think Mossy wants us to persist - Reddy is no less naturally talented with his feet than Galekovich, there's no reason why it can't work for us. We want the opponent to come on and press high so we can pass in behind, but we're not getting it quite right.

Ball in possession higher up the park:
------------------1------------------
-------------3----------4------------
--2---------------------6---------5--
-------------8-----------------------
------------------10-----------------
------7-----------------------11-----
------------------9------------------

Again, same as with Arnie. Hutch leans left, Monty leans right, we try to get fullbacks linking with wingers and 8 and 10 offer quick wall-passes to open up the flanks as we get behind the opposing fullbacks. Hutch is the quarterback - he steers the team around.

Yesterday when Monty was replaced by Trifiro, 8 moved higher:
------------------1------------------
-------------3----------4------------
--2---------------6---------------5--
-------------8---------10------------
------7-----------------------11-----
------------------9------------------

This changed the way they had to defend us, and gave us a little more flexibility. I can see us using it again.

Defensive block:
------------------1------------------
--2----------3----------4---------5--
--7----------8----------6--------11--
------9-----------------------10-----

Same as with Arnie. We don't give a flying if the opposing CBs have the ball unless they're actually advancing up the park with it. 9 and 10 get interested if the ball goes to the fullback. Say it goes to their left back: 9 will close off the bail out pass to the CB and 7 and 8 squeeze in to get them to cough the ball up.

What's new is that we've been changing this up occasionally with a really high press to force errors:

------------------1------------------
-------------3----------4------------
--2----------8----------6---------5--
------7-----------10----------11-----
------------------9------------------

I think the reason is simple - it's easiest to win the ball back within 5 seconds of losing it. If we can press hard and win it, we will, but if we can't we drop back into the block. City exposed this a few times where they were able to take advantage of broken play to get in behind 2 and 5 particularly, but we also got some chances out of it.

In all, with the change to playing out and the change to how we press, we're actually playing a less controlling, tight game than under Arnie, but looking to trust ourselves to either pass our way into positions to score or steal opportunities through pressure. We're going to have to move the ball better though, and make fewer mistakes.


Thanks Dibo, very informative. Thanks for writing it all out. I guess this is why Moss has a liking for Posco as he can hold on to the ball better, is better under pressure and can pass better than Ando and Bosnar.
We are showing signs of Adelaide at the beginning of last year when Gombau was copping so much from the press and fans.

Let just hope we can pull this altogether like Adelaide did as they are now very dominant.
 

MagpieMariner

Well-Known Member
I noticed the high press yesterday, but why would you not do it all the time, like they did to us? So many times yesterday our back 3 were squeezed really hard and a few times we coughed it up in bad spots. Other times we were forced to either boot the ball over the side or straight up the guts to their defence from whom it came straight back. In comparison, when their backs had the ball, we often let them move it back to the half-way before we really tried to take it off them. Because they were relaxed, they were able to pass it just where they wanted to. We got back into the game in the last 15 because we pressed hard for virtually the whole time.
Another thing I'd like to see is one or two of our strikeforce sitting up on half-way when we are defending corners or close in set pieces. They then have to defend those guys and we have someone to pass/kick to when we successfully defend said corner/set piece. Too many times yesterday Reddy had to wait for someone up the field instead of being able to deliver quickly and set up a potential counter with their guys having to bust a gut over 100 metres to get back to defend.
 

midfielder

Well-Known Member
Astute analysis D ...

All the systems described require to work at their best a strong central spine, in the past we had Sainsbury, Wilko, Dutchie, and always had arguably the best 10 in the A-League from Tommy P, to Flores and Macka did a reasonable job... this allowed us to play two screening mids both of which had passing and holding skills maybe not as high as we wanted but with the CB amd AMids in fron it all worked out quite well...

The issue is Kim, and Mane and arguably Vernes all signed as they could play a 10 role have to date been ineffectual, Trifiro is a capable 10 and good in defence just not the 10 we are used to or need for the game we seem to be playing ... and we still don't have a key striker especially one who can play back to goals...

I have always thought Kim to be a better wide player and I think he may struggle to get back into the side as his heart just does not seem in it...

Our season largely depends in having our 3 key imports in Kim, Mane and Vernes coming good if they fire we are in with a real chance if not we will struggle... Reminds me we we signed weeMac and Travis .... Travis had such talent but was not a team player and when Travis left weeMac exploded ... I wonder about Vernes as he reminds me of weeMac and is their a Travis in the side effecting him...
 

VicMariner

Well-Known Member
Damn Dibo, What a good analysis! Dibopold Method.

As Capt. Awsome said, Moss is under pressure like Gombau last season. Let's hope the fans and club stick by him and he delivers results.
Cutting out the cheap turnovers would help....They're killing us. A few outs and ins in January would be good too.
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
I noticed the high press yesterday, but why would you not do it all the time, like they did to us?

When we press really high, we put a lot of strain on the CBs to be able to mop up if we get in trouble and we run out of legs. Our CBs have been shaky this year and this was the third game in 8 days and the third of 5 in 15. Later in the season as the CBs settle and the legs are under less stress we might see the high press more and more.
 

MagpieMariner

Well-Known Member
When we press really high, we put a lot of strain on the CBs to be able to mop up if we get in trouble and we run out of legs. Our CBs have been shaky this year and this was the third game in 8 days and the third of 5 in 15. Later in the season as the CBs settle and the legs are under less stress we might see the high press more and more.
That will be good, I hope you're right. I really want to see that.
 

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