The end is nigh - impending doom - Moss out etc thread

[dibo]

We haven't really been playing two DMs lately anyway have we. Even though Hutch and Monty have been playing we have been playing Hutch more as an AM - much more forward. 433 style haven't we??

Yep, which is why I can't figure out the 'our tactics are shit' bit.

 

[nebakke]

I'd love to know what's wrong with the system and the tactics. It seems to be an unspoken truth, but I've not seen a rationale beyond Wombat's patented "two DMs bad, two strikers good" mantra.

I courteously refer you to my reply to wombat the other day in which I pretty much agree with you

Although there aren't as many of those comments as there were, it is evident that Hutch could play, only passing the ball forward at all times, and he would still be accused of being a 'back-passer'.

I think a number of disappointed fans have latched on to the idea that our tactics are appalling and Hutch passes back, hoping that replacing the coach and having Hutch retire, will solve everything...
I fear that they'll be sorely disappointed though - be nice if it were that easy.

 

[Capt. Awesome]

Yep, which is why I can't figure out the 'our tactics are shit' bit.

I'm too am sick of the 'our tactics are shit' statement because it never comes an alternative strategy or an explanation of what Moss' tactic is in the first place which shows a general lack of understanding of what is really going on on the pitch in the first place.

 

[VicMariner]

It's probably not the system. Our stats last night were pretty good and we had more possession than a squad worth a 100 million.

Where we seem to lack is decision making, both speed and correct choice. We seem to have possession for possession sake rather than to use it to attack.
How often do you see one of our guys with the ball with another one of our guys further forward in space and the guy with the ball either holds it till the guy in space is no longer an option or he himself is closed down or just simply passes backwards?
We need to be more aggressive and make choices sooner.

 

[dibo]

It's probably not the system. Our stats last night were pretty good and we had more possession than a squad worth a 100 million.

Where we seem to lack is decision making, both speed and correct choice. We seem to have possession for possession sake rather than to use it to attack.
How often do you see one of our guys with the ball with another one of our guys further forward in space and the guy with the ball either holds it till the guy in space is no longer an option or he himself is closed down or just simply passes backwards?
We need to be more aggressive and make choices sooner.

Bam - and this is where the players need to be making their difference. I thought our structure was good last night but for Major on the left flank, where he was pretty woeful (but apparently out of position - not that he improved at CF).

But that didn't stop people getting the ball caught under them because their first touch or bodyshape was poor. It didn't stop players waiting too long to pick an option and once picked, having the resultant pass intercepted because it had been telegraphed, photocopied and distributed to all members of the opposition, subjected to public inquiry and protested via diplomatic cables before the pass was actually sent.

We have OK plans that are ...e...x...e...c...u...t...e...d.....t...o...o.....s...l...o...w...l...y...

The coach can address that by stepping up the intensity in training and forcing them to work sharper, but there's a problem even there.

If the players don't rate him, if he's the one the players blame for their shit play, he's not going to be able to turn them around, whether he's at fault or not.

Rose has been in scratchy form at best and Moss cops crap for trying Micky Neill. Anderson's been pish all year, but Moss cops crap for not playing him and cops double crap for trying Rose in the middle when the centre-backs have been awful most of the year. We play Posco (who I think has been one of our best this year) and people complain we're playing State League players. We play Duke up front at the start of the year and people fret that we don't have Matty on the park. Matty comes on in the FFA Cup semi and goes alright, people demand he plays but bitch that Duke makes way for him and plays wide. We play Vernes people complain. He has 20 decent minutes and people complain we don't play him, but then complain he's not fit. We sign Cernak and people complain he's shit, and now clamour for him to play more.

Some of the complaint appears to be coming from the playing group and others through to fans. That's not helping at all, and looks to concentrate the blame on one guy when failure has many authors.

There's no f**king winning with some people.

 

[Capt. Awesome]

Here is an interesting graphic stolen from 442 forum. Moss only one place behind Mariners Legend Lawrie Mckinna.

 

[Bladesman]

Bam - and this is where the players need to be making their difference. I thought our structure was good last night but for Major on the left flank, where he was pretty woeful (but apparently out of position - not that he improved at CF).

But that didn't stop people getting the ball caught under them because their first touch or bodyshape was poor. It didn't stop players waiting too long to pick an option and once picked, having the resultant pass intercepted because it had been telegraphed, photocopied and distributed to all members of the opposition, subjected to public inquiry and protested via diplomatic cables before the pass was actually sent.

We have OK plans that are ...e...x...e...c...u...t...e...d.....t...o...o.....s...l...o...w...l...y...

The coach can address that by stepping up the intensity in training and forcing them to work sharper, but there's a problem even there.

If the players don't rate him, if he's the one the players blame for their shit play, he's not going to be able to turn them around, whether he's at fault or not.

Rose has been in scratchy form at best and Moss cops crap for trying Micky Neill. Anderson's been pish all year, but Moss cops crap for not playing him and cops double crap for trying Rose in the middle when the centre-backs have been awful most of the year. We play Posco (who I think has been one of our best this year) and people complain we're playing State League players. We play Duke up front at the start of the year and people fret that we don't have Matty on the park. Matty comes on in the FFA Cup semi and goes alright, people demand he plays but bitch that Duke makes way for him and plays wide. We play Vernes people complain. He has 20 decent minutes and people complain we don't play him, but then complain he's not fit. We sign Cernak and people complain he's shit, and now clamour for him to play more.

Some of the complaint appears to be coming from the playing group and others through to fans. That's not helping at all, and looks to concentrate the blame on one guy when failure has many authors.

There's no f**king winning with some people.

This post may make sense if it were the same person that was contradicting themselves.

Most people on here are consistent with there views and when they have changed usually have good reasoning.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with us all having different opinions.

We could be winning every game 8 - 0 and there would still be differences of opinion.

When you take on the role of coach ultimately you are going to live and die by your results. One of those results can be the improvement in your team and performances which is the one killing moss and not necessarily the result of the game. We might not have the best players but we are not even standing still we are going backwards. For that fact I can and will blame moss and call for his head.

 

[Gratis]

this is what I've said too - tactics are fine, in fact I like what we're trying to do. but the players just aren't pulling it off. so we will either wait til they do or play a system that suits the current cattle. I like what I'm seeing with the Caceres/Ferriera combos and think that it'll bring the best out of Cac.

I also don't think our players are that bad. a zwaanswijk/sainsbury CB is critical and then I even think our attack will improve out of sight.

I think recruit well on cb first then we're on an upward spiral. definitely need to do that before considering a coach change.

oh and my criticism of Mossy can be summed up by saying - field a consistent squad (which buy he's starting to do) and enough with the crazy subs

 

[Gratis]

lack of confidence going forward is our undoing, and poor defending. both start at cb. and Posc is the goods but needs experienced quality next to him

just sayin'

 

[adz]

We have OK plans that are ...e...x...e...c...u...t...e...d.....t...o...o.....s...l...o...w...l...y...

Funny this... when we were in the FFA Cup games before the season, I remember thinking it looked like we were going through the movements in slow motion, basically a training run, and would eventually get them up to full speed during the season.

Still waiting!

 

[soccer mad]

I don't think our players are that bad either but they are serious lacking confidence hence why their decisions making is stagnant. There is definitely a major step from state league to A league
for the debutant players where time and adjustments is required.'But also playing in confidant team which ours is not at the moment doesn't help.Watching the game last night I really felt this team was for the taking but our mariners are not brimming with confidence. When the team is ticking decision seems to be more fluent its like you have more time thats why in the final third we're not deadly.
l thought Caceres played with right metal.
I know there's no short fix in our resolve for consistency but I'm afraid i cant see Mossy turning it around any time soon or in the future

 

[Roy Law]

Here is an interesting graphic stolen from 442 forum. Moss only one place behind Mariners Legend Lawrie Mckinna.
View attachment 240

McKinna declined markedly towards the end of his time with us; he should have quit a year earlier when the going was good. Is Moss going to improve or is this his best?

 

[dibo]

His decline seemed to coincide with us having the worst squad in our history.

In 2008/9 we were pretty ordinary but Mile Jedinak kept us in games. When he left, we didn't win another game.

In 2009/10 we cheaped out something savage and had a very poor squad. The only squad that rivals it in terms of the distance between us and the leading sides is this year's squad.

Arnie started with us in 2010/11 and we did away with Huke, Macallister, Boogard, Nikas, Crowell, Travis and Elrich and we were able to get players like Zwaanswijk, Rose, Griffiths, Bozanic, Perez...

If we added half a dozen quality players to this year's squad but left Moss where he is, where do you think we'd be right now?

 

[VicMariner]

At least in the six.
Hard to guess beyond that.

 

[Bladesman]

His decline seemed to coincide with us having the worst squad in our history.

In 2008/9 we were pretty ordinary but Mile Jedinak kept us in games. When he left, we didn't win another game.

In 2009/10 we cheaped out something savage and had a very poor squad. The only squad that rivals it in terms of the distance between us and the leading sides is this year's squad.

Arnie started with us in 2010/11 and we did away with Huke, Macallister, Boogard, Nikas, Crowell, Travis and Elrich and we were able to get players like Zwaanswijk, Rose, Griffiths, Bozanic, Perez...

If we added half a dozen quality players to this year's squad but left Moss where he is, where do you think we'd be right now?

Moss has added players but they have not been of the quality of those Arnold added either the seasons pro's he brought in or through the development of the kids.

Part of a coaches job is to uncover hidden talent at cheaper prices. We could argue that Arnold may have had more $ but because of salary cap not stupid amounts more. Either way Moss has proved he can't do the job with the $ and resources we have or he has failed miserably in the transfer market if he did have the $.

 

[soccer mad]

We

His decline seemed to coincide with us having the worst squad in our history.

In 2008/9 we were pretty ordinary but Mile Jedinak kept us in games. When he left, we didn't win another game.

In 2009/10 we cheaped out something savage and had a very poor squad. The only squad that rivals it in terms of the distance between us and the leading sides is this year's squad.

Arnie started with us in 2010/11 and we did away with Huke, Macallister, Boogard, Nikas, Crowell, Travis and Elrich and we were able to get players like Zwaanswijk, Rose, Griffiths, Bozanic, Perez...

If we added half a dozen quality players to this year's squad but left Moss where he is, where do you think we'd be right now?

We'd have a players revolt because Moss couldn't control the ego's because of his tactical decisions .All jokes aside I'd hate to be in Mossys shoes this is a tough gig but it is what it is .Coaches live by the sword every day

 

[Gratis]

I've been thinking about this all day and I'm back off the fence.

I'm happy to give Mossy the season, and more if the remainder of this one isn't a disaster.

It's a rebuilding year after all and other clubs have gone through them with similar lack of early success. Moss is a new coach at this level and learning the ropes under very trying circumstances. He needs time too.
We have some very good players, and some whose contracts we need to wait out. When we play well we're pretty decent, we just don't do it all game. Momentary lapses mean cheap goals, poor confidence and thus soft teeth for attacking with.
If/when things click we'll be a side we enjoy watching as well as enjoying the wins. I think its coming, and I think Ferriera will be why. He will provide the others with confidence to make runs and for the likes of Caceres to do his thing meaning more attacks will succeed.
The defense remains the issue and recruitment/waiting out contracts will be key.
We also have some great young guys beginning to ripen and the next period is where they will provide their value.
I have have no problem with Mossy's tactics or philosophy but like everyone else have been frustrated at watching them unravel at the seems.

I'm going with a dose of patience. For the time being Moss has my support. I think it'll all come together still and that we have to get through this rebuilding phase before we'll be a powerhouse again.
When we are the glory will be all the more intoxicating.

 

[Gratis]

I know many will see this differently.
for others the results are getting frustrating (combined with the frustration of the moved home games and all that other stuff) and it seems that changing the coach is the only way that things will change. it won't be the silver bullet though. if you're just in the frustrated camp and simply can't see another way out think about what I've said above.
for those that flat out disagree - fair cop, we'll all see it with different perspectives

 

[pjennings]

His decline seemed to coincide with us having the worst squad in our history.

In 2008/9 we were pretty ordinary but Mile Jedinak kept us in games. When he left, we didn't win another game.

In 2009/10 we cheaped out something savage and had a very poor squad. The only squad that rivals it in terms of the distance between us and the leading sides is this year's squad.

Arnie started with us in 2010/11 and we did away with Huke, Macallister, Boogard, Nikas, Crowell, Travis and Elrich and we were able to get players like Zwaanswijk, Rose, Griffiths, Bozanic, Perez...

If we added half a dozen quality players to this year's squad but left Moss where he is, where do you think we'd be right now?

I actually think the thing that hurt us most is losing Maty. Not only in defence but also in attack. We would be under pressure - he would make a save and release Pedj or Rose - play it out through Trent or Patty or pick out McBreen from 60 metres. We didn't play under pressure in defence so we were more comfortable in attack. Reddy is a decent shot stopper but doesn't have that aspect to his game and Nash just doesn't put enough pressure on him. The fact that we have the both for an extra season is a problem.

Apart from the problem at GK we could field a decent side next year with the addition of only 3 or 4 players.


----------------------------Reddy

Roux or new RB ---Jacob----New CB----Rose or Neill

-----------------Montgomery----------------------

----------Vernes/Trifiro-----Caceres/Trifiro

Ferriera/ Cernak----New CF-------------New LW/Fitzy


I actually think we will see a bit from Vernes. He reminds of a situation when I was growing up watching the Balmain Tigers. They bought in an English import called Tony Myler. The team didn't seem to understand what he was trying to do and he looked poor for around 10 weeks. Then Scott Gale started combining well with him and the team kicked on. soon Garry Jack started playing well with him and they went to another level.

That team might not inspire you - but think of it with Maty at the back and you see what we have lost.

 

[yorkshireman]

I have to agree with Dibo on a lot of points he made in post 445 about how we complain about something and then complain again when that happens because of a change that was made to allow the change (if that makes sense lol).

The main issue that stands out for me is the speed at which we play and the options presented to players. Personally I think that Eddie is the biggest load of pish to grace a football field BUT he does point out one of our major issues. You will see him raise his hand when he looks up to ask where the movement is, we are way too static and as a result the passes are forced by players who in the most part aren't skillful enough to thread the eye of the needle. This lack of motion leads then to our second major issue which is to do with why we can't score. By the time we get into the attacking 1/3 of the field, we are s..o...s...l...o...w that even if a team hasn't parked the proverbial bus, they have the time to stroll back and defend in large numbers. This then in turn forces us to go back and get abuse.

It was interesting to see the difference when Trif and Cernak came on on Tuesday as the team seemed to free up and start to run with the ball which in turn caused defensive players to have to do something thereby creating some space for us. Cernak also showed a lot of frustration when players didn't respond to his runs and quick passing.

After watching all season, this seems ouyt of character for Mossy's "plan" and as such I can only assume that some of the players at that point decided...
"screw this, lets play some football and see what happens. Hell, it can't be much worse can it?"

Could this also be why Cernak and Trif haven't seen much game time when they clearly look like the players to promote? Grounded for not following orders?