Mariners Squad - HAL 13 - 2017- 2018

[Big Al]

Wasn't Fab at training the other day? He knows how to finish and could add a lot to this team and keep Pain under pressure. Maybe time for Trent to get a start as well.

Trents on the nose. Seems to be that those preseason rumours might be true. He didn't bring anything last week and looks like Appiah is going to be on the bench ahead of him when Hoole DDS and Pain all start.

If Fab wasn't Visa then definitely bring him in. Would be good with this team

 

[nebakke]

Wasn't Fab at training the other day? He knows how to finish and could add a lot to this team and keep Pain under pressure. Maybe time for Trent to get a start as well.

Fab's left foot went missing on his 10th birthday... Sadly they never found it... So all he'd do is add more pressure to Appiah, Trent and Hoole

 

[Timmah]

Isn't Fab contracted to another club now?

 

[Big Al]

Isn't Fab contracted to another club now?

Yes, but he was photographed at training last week.

Just looked up the league stops for a month for Ramadan.
Rd21 was late September and next round is late October so the league has had a break for a month.

Therefore he was just visiting on his break

That said says they only have one round left. Break for a month then one game. Weird. Not sure how accurate that is

 

[Timmah]

Yes, but he was photographed at training last week.

Just looked up the league stops for a month for Ramadan.
Rd21 was late September and next round is late October so the league has had a break for a month.

Therefore he was just visiting on his break

That said says they only have one round left. Break for a month then one game. Weird. Not sure how accurate that is

Sounds like the A-League isn't the only competition with arse-about scheduling.

 

[Kareem]

Yes, but he was photographed at training last week.

Just looked up the league stops for a month for Ramadan.
Rd21 was late September and next round is late October so the league has had a break for a month.

Ramadan finished last week of June this year...

 

[Big Al]

Ramadan finished last week of June this year...

Ok thanks was just going off something that said they stop for Ramadan and the league stopped for a month. Must have been another reason

 

[Ozhammer]

Just to add the the earlier debate about where we are lacking, we appear to be forgetting that we signed Kye Rowles as a CB who can also play at LB. From what I saw if him in pre-season, he is a good pick up and I believe the only reason he isn't on the bench atm is that he is injured.

For me, Pain is main our issue atm, as he simply isn't bringing enough to the party for someone of his alleged ability level. His confidence seems a pale shadow of what it needs to be if he really wants to take his game on to the next level. As others have said, he needs someone breathing down his next for the LM spot, to give him a rev up.

 

[Woollybutt]

I disagree with a lot of the criticisms of Pain. The miss last week was shocking, but I don’t think he’s been anywhere near as bad as has been made out. For one thing the system we’re playing doesn’t necessarily suit him. Okon’s game plan seems (at least to me) to focus on overwhelming the opposition in midfield. We very rarely see both wingers actually staying wide, with or without the ball. At least one of them is usually tucking in to create a four man box in midfield, and I don’t think this suits Pain. When you think about his best moments, they tend to have come from a wider starting position. There’s nothing really wrong with Okon’s tactics, as it gives us more solidity in midfield when we lose the ball and there isn’t much point trying to cross to Asdrubal from wide, but it doesn’t suit Pain as well as someone like Hoole, or even Appiah. Pain’s still doing a decent job defensively in my opinion, but he’s out of his comfort zone in attack because of our tactics, and that’s impacting his confidence and his instincts.

I’m very confident he’ll come good though. He doesn’t need more pressure from another left winger, he needs time and patience to adapt his game. I think as they get used to the system and their teammates, we’ll see Pain taking up better positions while still meeting Okon’s tactical demands, and we’ll see him getting on the ball in good areas after quick switches from Hiariej and De Silva. I also think if Bingham gets a bit more game time at some point, Pain and Buhagiar would be the biggest beneficiaries.

I could be totally wrong with my theory of what’s going wrong for him of course, but I thought someone needed to stand up for Pain before he becomes this year’s scapegoat.

 

[Big Al]

I disagree with a lot of the criticisms of Pain. The miss last week was shocking, but I don’t think he’s been anywhere near as bad as has been made out. For one thing the system we’re playing doesn’t necessarily suit him. Okon’s game plan seems (at least to me) to focus on overwhelming the opposition in midfield. We very rarely see both wingers actually staying wide, with or without the ball. At least one of them is usually tucking in to create a four man box in midfield, and I don’t think this suits Pain. When you think about his best moments, they tend to have come from a wider starting position. There’s nothing really wrong with Okon’s tactics, as it gives us more solidity in midfield when we lose the ball and there isn’t much point trying to cross to Asdrubal from wide, but it doesn’t suit Pain as well as someone like Hoole, or even Appiah. Pain’s still doing a decent job defensively in my opinion, but he’s out of his comfort zone in attack because of our tactics, and that’s impacting his confidence and his instincts.

I’m very confident he’ll come good though. He doesn’t need more pressure from another left winger, he needs time and patience to adapt his game. I think as they get used to the system and their teammates, we’ll see Pain taking up better positions while still meeting Okon’s tactical demands, and we’ll see him getting on the ball in good areas after quick switches from Hiariej and De Silva. I also think if Bingham gets a bit more game time at some point, Pain and Buhagiar would be the biggest beneficiaries.

I could be totally wrong with my theory of what’s going wrong for him of course, but I thought someone needed to stand up for Pain before he becomes this year’s scapegoat.

The system gives him every opportunity. His stats are horrible in the main categories he gets judged on. Goals and assists. He absolutely needs someone to put pressure on him.

I’ve said enough previously so won’t rehash.

I hope you are right and just needs some patience but we don’t have time for that. That was preseason. He needs to do something in the next two games for me

 

[Woollybutt]

The system gives him every opportunity. His stats are horrible in the main categories he gets judged on. Goals and assists. He absolutely needs someone to put pressure on him.

I’ve said enough previously so won’t rehash.

I hope you are right and just needs some patience but we don’t have time for that. That was preseason. He needs to do something in the next two games for me

I'm skeptical of using statistics to judge player performance, but goals and assists shouldn't necessarily be the main categories he's judged on. If you look at chances created last season (which removes the variable of who is finishing the chances), he was second only to Fabio (24 to 25) and compares favourably to others of a similar level such as Kamau (20, Fitzgerald (14), Austin and Buhagiar (11), and even Ben Khalfallah (27). He's not at the top (EG, Hoole had 51), but he did fine. I'd like to see statistics like attempted and successful take-ons (which I suspect would be lower with us than with Melbourne), but I don't know of anywhere that keeps that statistics for the A-League. I also don't think having someone to pressure him is a panacea. Having Hoole come in doesn't seem to have forced Buhagiar to lift his game for example.

My point is that we do have the time to be patient with him. He isn't playing his best, but he isn't a liability either. He's still creating chances, getting into decent positions, and pulling his weight defensively, so we can afford to keep playing him while he adjusts to the requirements of the system, and while Hiariej, Brama, De Silva, Rose, Hoole, and Asdrubal get used to playing with him. Asdrubal and Brama into pre-season quite late, Rose and De Silva had injury problems that meant they weren't training and playing together all the time, so I think it's harsh to say they should have worked it out in pre-season. I'd give him at least ten games to prove himself, then maybe we can think about getting someone in, or planning to replace him for next season, but at the moment I think he's being harshly criticised.

 

[scottmac]

I cant see why pain would not suit this style and formation. Play him in down the wings and he gets to cross it in, cut it back or recycle it. They're is every reason to cross out to Asdrubal because he's shown that he'll move heaven and earth to be first to the ball.
Pain suits this system. Hes just low on confidence and lacking form. Like pointed out by others I think it's a direct result of having no competition for his spot other than a youth league player.

 

[Tevor]

Whilst he missed an absolute sitter last week I watched every game last week and he wasn't on his own in that category with at least three or four sitters missed last week across the league. We all have higher expectations this year and I hope he will learn from it. Good to see our fans lifting the expectations of our players compared to what we have had to endure the last few years. He is now in a better quality team so he needs to lift to that level and I truely hope he can.

 

[Woollybutt]

I cant see why pain would not suit this style and formation. Play him in down the wings and he gets to cross it in, cut it back or recycle it. They're is every reason to cross out to Asdrubal because he's shown that he'll move heaven and earth to be first to the ball.
Pain suits this system. Hes just low on confidence and lacking form. Like pointed out by others I think it's a direct result of having no competition for his spot other than a youth league player.

It's not the formation, it's the tactics. He has to tuck inside more often to provide numbers in the middle of the pitch, with the idea that we then have four guys in the middle (Brama, Hiariej, De Silva, and one of Pain or Hoole) to overwhelm the opposition in midfield (as they did for De Silva's goal) or, if we lose the ball, to stop them from passing it into their own midfield. This means that Pain is frequently starting from a narrower position than he's used to and than I think he would prefer. Look at the missed chance, if Pain's starting position had been a few metres wider, he'd have crossed it for Asdrubal to score a sitter. I think he'll adjust to the system, but it doesn't suit his natural game.

 

[pjennings]

It's not the formation, it's the tactics. He has to tuck inside more often to provide numbers in the middle of the pitch, with the idea that we then have four guys in the middle (Brama, Hiariej, De Silva, and one of Pain or Hoole) to overwhelm the opposition in midfield (as they did for De Silva's goal) or, if we lose the ball, to stop them from passing it into their own midfield. This means that Pain is frequently starting from a narrower position than he's used to and than I think he would prefer. Look at the missed chance, if Pain's starting position had been a few metres wider, he'd have crossed it for Asdrubal to score a sitter. I think he'll adjust to the system, but it doesn't suit his natural game.

Yes Pain is frequently starting in a narrower position as does Appiah. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing as it gives us more solidity in the middle. It also keeps the defence guessing. Are our wingers going wide or cutting back in. Last season there was only one answer. This year if Pain, Appiah or Hoole cut in Josh and Storm cut down the outside. The defence is torn on how and where we will attack. With DDS also able to pull strings through the middle we will create many more chances than last season.

I want to see more end product from Connor as well but I am not too worried at this stage. It also should be noted that DDS, Hoole and Pain have all played together under Paolo and that understanding should bear fruit.

 

[Ozhammer]

I hope I am not giving the impression from my posts that I am a Pain-basher, as I would like nothing more than to see him come good and become a real threat up front.

That said, I really can't agree with some folk's comments that he is pulling his weight defensively, as that is his biggest failing in my opinion. He never closes down opponents with any intent and is often out of position when we are defending our penalty box, meaning Rose senior gets isolated.

I guess we all see the game differently but for me, he is currently failing in both areas for whatever reason and accordingly some criticism of this is justifiable I believe.

Certain systems suit certain players better and some not at all but it is up to the individual to find a way to best adapt their play to contribute as much as they can to the game plan. Pain is not being played so far out of position that he really has an excuse for not delivering more than he currently is and the other players all seem to have adapted better to Okonball, so my criticisms of his contribution stand and only time will tell if he can step up to the required level I guess.

 

[Big Al]

It's not the formation, it's the tactics. He has to tuck inside more often to provide numbers in the middle of the pitch, with the idea that we then have four guys in the middle (Brama, Hiariej, De Silva, and one of Pain or Hoole) to overwhelm the opposition in midfield (as they did for De Silva's goal) or, if we lose the ball, to stop them from passing it into their own midfield. This means that Pain is frequently starting from a narrower position than he's used to and than I think he would prefer. Look at the missed chance, if Pain's starting position had been a few metres wider, he'd have crossed it for Asdrubal to score a sitter. I think he'll adjust to the system, but it doesn't suit his natural game.

Playing more inside should help Connar as he can get on to his left foot more and have some shots on his preferred foot.

Last week happens to all players but he hasn’t been playing well for a while. Dropped off bad last season.

Chances created is a decent stat although who decides what a chance is.
Goals and assists win games and our front 4 weren’t good ar either except for Roy who still could have been better.

Connar is also copping it because he is playing. Budgie has also not kicked on and can’t even get in the side now.

As Tevor said we are lifting our standards so needs to do that to.

We had a bad team for last couple of years and people all wanted a better team but loved certain players who weren’t performing (not just pain).

Good on you for having your say and I hope he comes good. I really do but I don’t see it. That said I’ll be first to say well done if I’m wrong

 

[McGr1m3]

Obviously Paulo is seeing these guys at training every day if the effort or skill wasn't there Pain wouldn't be in the side.
So as long as Paulo picks him I will support him all the way.
If he slots that goal last week were not having this conversation so a goal tomorrow is the real answer.
Come on Connor show us what you've got mate we know it's in there somewhere.

 

[Woollybutt]

Just to clarify, I wasn’t intending to accuse anyone in particular of Pain bashing. I fully agree that he’s had a poor start to the season by his own, and the club’s ever increasing, standards. I just thought that the criticism generally was starting to exceed his actual failings (as I see them), and I think that there’s something more to his poor start than just a lack of pressure for his position. I also agree that it’s up to Pain to adjust to the system, because as others have said it has been set up to benefit the whole team and it seems to be working.

On his defensive output, I tend to think his positioning is pretty good in that it often stops teams from making aggressive passes. His pressing on the front foot is rubbish, and his tracking back is inconsistent, but overall I think his defensive work is solid without being great. I’d say the same think about Appiah, who I think tracks back well and presses with enthusiasm, but doesn’t put himself in the right positions to force the opposition to recycle possession. I guess defending is a complex art, and we’ll all place greater emphasis on different aspects of it.

Thanks for responding respectfully to my comments. It’s always good to know that there are some corners of the internet where people can politely disagree! Now, hopefully Pain can gave a repeat of that performance from Round 1 last year…

 

[JoyfulPenguin]

I think Connor is a more than capable player he is just one that struggles with confidence. He thrives when given a role that doesn't require him to think, and therefore worry, about the outcome of it. I think rather than his current role in Paolo's system he would be better suited to be providing consistent forward runs and creating space for other players that can do more in possession. His weakness is his recycling of the ball and maintaining possession . So we shouldn't ask him to try that and just ask him to provide more of a longer option.