CCM Fans and the club

[serious14]

If only an offer for the club to be bought 2 years ago existed but was turned down by a greedy owner who waaaaaaaaay overvalued what he had.

If only.

 

[Coast Football Ramble]

This is what I'm afraid of, not only expansion but the drum beat of promotion and relegation is only getting louder. What are we going to do when that inevitably happens? If we are $3 million in debt now, after three seasons of spending the absolute minimum, how will be able to compete year on year to stay up? We rely on the TV deal to cover the majority of our costs, if we get relegated and lose that how do we continue as a club? Even if somehow the promotion and relegation zealots are held at bay how does the club plan on adding anything to Australian football in general? Compared to other clubs bidding to be apart of the A-League we have next to no funds and are in $3 million debt, the COE isn't even ours! What are we offering Australian football apart from dragging down the quality of the league by spending the absolute minimum amount, when the TV deal covers our entire salary cap! If the business side of our football club cannot, at the very least, fund the operation of backroom staff and travel etc then how are we ever going to be a viable entity? If our three years of austerity have delivered nothing but a $3 million debt, how can we expect to remain one of the few professional football clubs in this country when there are about twenty other bids with much more financial muscle and a better business case. I want us to succeed and to do well, more than anything, but if this is our situation then how can we?

Most of the debt was accrued during Arnies reign here from what I understand.
The years of austerity have reigned in a lot of financial bleeding and I'm assuming it's bringing us back towards a positive financial balance that we hold (against Mike).

Relegation would be a huge death nail for this club.
Every club in the A-league would also now need to take relegation into player contracts as well to try and curb money loss when playing in the lower league. This would see possibly a decent player for the club only lasting a year if your team does get relegated.

I'd imagine that there would be parachute payments in place so that clubs that do go down get more money than the rest of the clubs that were in that league the season before making it easier for the former A-league club to pay it's players etc.

 

[serious14]

My concern regarding the CoE and the club being "separate" is there's numerous quotes around the place of Charlesworth selling it to us all as the future lifeblood of the club, the thing that will secure our financial stability forever more blah blah etc., and to now have it be... well, nothing to do with the club's finances at all... who/what does it serve? Why does a MARINERS CoE exist if not for the direct benefit of the Mariners?

Midfielder's history lesson on the previous page hit the nail on the head - this country is littered with former clubs that either straight up don't exist anymore, or are shells of their former selves buried in NPL3 and its equivalents in other states. Don't think it can't happen to us.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

Whilst I am not confident of the future I do not see reason to be as pessimistic as many here.

Do you remember the one think left in the bottom of Pandora's box? Hope.

Why do I retain hope?

1) The Club and the COE are not one and the same but they will exist as a mutualism. Both will benefit from the continued existence of the other. Having them as separate entities is insurance against one going bad and dragging the other down with it. I am sure that when (if) the COE starts making a profit this profit will flow to the Club, purely for the reason of making the Club more valuable. One does not make money from football clubs by taking money out. The money is made in capital gain.

2) If Mike could not see a capital gain in the future he would have sold for an amount to cut his losses when he had an offer rather than asking for a ridiculous amount.

Why am I not confident?

1) A lot of the forward projections for this season did not come to pass, due to the tv deal not delivering and a pretty poor A-league season overall.

2) If the FFA control of the A-league carries on and does not get separated I cannot see much new investment in clubs being generated. This will be when our club's licence may be sold and moved. I do not see Mike allowing it to be resumed.

At present I see Mike, other owners and possible investors in the A-League sitting on their hands until the future governance of the League is sorted. How hard you sit on your hands depends on how deep your pockets are. A good indication of this can be seen by looking at the table.

If change happens in a way the owners want I see hope for us and the League. It depends how long current owners are prepared to be patient.
If there is no change, I am pessimistic for both us and football in this country.

We are living in interesting times. (Chinese meaning)

 

[serious14]

Poor season overall indeed... would have no hesitation labelling this the most "meh" season out of the 13 or whatever it is thus far.

 

[Big Al]

Also for me is the expectation that the COE is making us money. I don’t see it. Why do people think that?
The COE is still in development stage and will be for a long time. Any money made would be going to the next stage or paying off the last stage.

Where do people see it’s revenues being from? Who rents space that would cover the costs of it including loans etc that built it. Also if it is half empty why? Not a good location or to much competition in the area or owners holding space etc?

I don’t hear of any carnivals wanting to play on the gypsy built field.

The COE is a long term vision not short term. Just because we can see it doesn’t make it finished.

No expectations from me for the COE to be funding the Mariners in the short term.

The football team needs to be pulling its own financial weight and Shaun has done a really good job on what we hear in making that happen but FFA and poor crowds have taken away what was looking like the turning point in our teams finances.

Paul has a big part to play in that. If he had the team roaring we would buck the crowd trends as we love our team and are less influenced buy the politics of the league and fox etc. we win all those winnable games and we are happy with a good season we are fighting for the 6 and the season is a success and there is no mid season fade out.

Mike can obviously see a more longer term plan than fans sick of loosing.
He is getting blamed as is always the case with any sports team as he is the top of it. However we live in a dream world if we think someone will just take it off him and spend millions on the team.

The coast just doesn’t have the big businesses and viewership to support large corporations splashing cash for fun on us.

 

[Capn Gus Bloodbeard]

That's the problem with the COE. It might secure us in the long term but we might not make it until then.
I think promotion and relegation are still a long, long way off, if ever. But as expansion happens .. And happens again.... I can see FFA starting to wonder about replacing the clubs that aren't pulling their weight.
Anybody know how safe we actually are from that?
And the other question is - how can we build short term finances?

 

[Insertnamehere]

Whilst I am not confident of the future I do not see reason to be as pessimistic as many here.

Do you remember the one think left in the bottom of Pandora's box? Hope.

Why do I retain hope?

1) The Club and the COE are not one and the same but they will exist as a mutualism. Both will benefit from the continued existence of the other. Having them as separate entities is insurance against one going bad and dragging the other down with it. I am sure that when (if) the COE starts making a profit this profit will flow to the Club, purely for the reason of making the Club more valuable. One does not make money from football clubs by taking money out. The money is made in capital gain.

2) If Mike could not see a capital gain in the future he would have sold for an amount to cut his losses when he had an offer rather than asking for a ridiculous amount.

Why am I not confident?

1) A lot of the forward projections for this season did not come to pass, due to the tv deal not delivering and a pretty poor A-league season overall.

2) If the FFA control of the A-league carries on and does not get separated I cannot see much new investment in clubs being generated. This will be when our club's licence may be sold and moved. I do not see Mike allowing it to be resumed.

At present I see Mike, other owners and possible investors in the A-League sitting on their hands until the future governance of the League is sorted. How hard you sit on your hands depends on how deep your pockets are. A good indication of this can be seen by looking at the table.

If change happens in a way the owners want I see hope for us and the League. It depends how long current owners are prepared to be patient.
If there is no change, I am pessimistic for both us and football in this country.

We are living in interesting times. (Chinese meaning)

May you live in interesting times is a Chinese proverb used as a sledge on someone.

 

[Insertnamehere]

Whilst I am not confident of the future I do not see reason to be as pessimistic as many here.

Do you remember the one think left in the bottom of Pandora's box? Hope.

Why do I retain hope?

1) The Club and the COE are not one and the same but they will exist as a mutualism. Both will benefit from the continued existence of the other. Having them as separate entities is insurance against one going bad and dragging the other down with it. I am sure that when (if) the COE starts making a profit this profit will flow to the Club, purely for the reason of making the Club more valuable. One does not make money from football clubs by taking money out. The money is made in capital gain.

2) If Mike could not see a capital gain in the future he would have sold for an amount to cut his losses when he had an offer rather than asking for a ridiculous amount.

Why am I not confident?

1) A lot of the forward projections for this season did not come to pass, due to the tv deal not delivering and a pretty poor A-league season overall.

2) If the FFA control of the A-league carries on and does not get separated I cannot see much new investment in clubs being generated. This will be when our club's licence may be sold and moved. I do not see Mike allowing it to be resumed.

At present I see Mike, other owners and possible investors in the A-League sitting on their hands until the future governance of the League is sorted. How hard you sit on your hands depends on how deep your pockets are. A good indication of this can be seen by looking at the table.

If change happens in a way the owners want I see hope for us and the League. It depends how long current owners are prepared to be patient.
If there is no change, I am pessimistic for both us and football in this country.

We are living in interesting times. (Chinese meaning)

I believe if you hold large assets you would hold them seperately in trust or limited liability company so if one goes down it doesn't hit all of them. But that is a semi educated guess. So they club don't specifically own the CoE but derive an income as a director or something like that? I would have thought the CoE is meant to be a cash cow for CCM like Leagues clubs are to NRL clubs without the social destruction they cause.

 

[Tevor]

Nix have three more years, I recall they were given a four year license last year. I don’t see them existing after 4 years IMO. At the moment they take a lot of the heat off us but in three years time we will become the main focus if we don’t improve considerably when they are gone.

I don’t think all that highly of the CoE, it’s good the club is developing it and hopefully it provides good facilities etc for the club. I question if it is also a sound long term income generator for the club. Cannot help but think MC is all for it for his own benefit not the club.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

FFS of course MC is in it for his own benefit, as is every other football club owner in the world.
Do you spend money (apart from charities) for anyone else's benefit but your own?
He is not going to throw money away for my, your's or anyone else's benefit.

The whole aim is trying to match his benefit with ours.

It is his money and he can spend it how he likes.

 

[Tevor]

FFS of course MC is in it for his own benefit, as is every other football club owner in the world.
Do you spend money (apart from charities) for anyone else's benefit but your own?
He is not going to throw money away for my, your's or anyone else's benefit.

The whole aim is trying to match his benefit with ours.

It is his money and he can spend it how he likes.

I’m referring to the CoE that isn’t owned by the club. He could royally shaft the club in five years time and no one can do anything about it. His heart isn’t in the club at all, the Bakrie Group are the same and look at Roar over the last few seasons and their future is as bright as ours. Only he would know why he bailed the club out when he did. I bet it wasn’t because he was a Mariners fan.

 

[JoyfulPenguin]

FFS of course MC is in it for his own benefit, as is every other football club owner in the world.
Do you spend money (apart from charities) for anyone else's benefit but your own?
He is not going to throw money away for my, your's or anyone else's benefit.

The whole aim is trying to match his benefit with ours.

It is his money and he can spend it how he likes.

He most definitely can, but where will that lead us a club? That's his prerogative and shouldn't people be allowed to criticize for potential flaws in that philosophy? I am grateful that we have the ability to have a club and that is largely thanks to him, but Charlesworth cannot be immune from criticism. Football is not a money making business, there are barely any clubs around the world that break even let alone make a profit, so isn't expecting to do so naive? In regards to world football we are actually rather well placed to be financially well managed we have a salary cap that ensures we do not have to spend extreme amounts to be anywhere close to competitive and a TV deal that fully covers our wages in the salary cap. If we cannot cover the other costs of our football club when the most expensive part of our business is almost entirely handed to us, how will we ever be the sort of club with a business model that Charlesworth wants?

 

[Ancient Mariner]

I give up.

 

[true believer]

I am surprised at this discussion. It has been common knowledge for many years that the COE and the football club were separate entities, with some commonality of ownership, mostly (but not totally) the same names, some differences in percentages. I am sure someone can dig up the details.

I have always assumed that the idea of the COE making money to benefit the football club would come from the owners of the COE to then afford to put more into the Club.

I am truly amazed that this is "new news" on this forum.

yes but tell us of your north sydney experience AM and how easy and quick it may be to get screwed over.

 

[serious14]

He most definitely can, but where will that lead us a club? That's his prerogative and shouldn't people be allowed to criticize for potential flaws in that philosophy? I am grateful that we have the ability to have a club and that is largely thanks to him, but Charlesworth cannot be immune from criticism. Football is not a money making business, there are barely any clubs around the world that break even let alone make a profit, so isn't expecting to do so naive? In regards to world football we are actually rather well placed to be financially well managed we have a salary cap that ensures we do not have to spend extreme amounts to be anywhere close to competitive and a TV deal that fully covers our wages in the salary cap. If we cannot cover the other costs of our football club when the most expensive part of our business is almost entirely handed to us, how will we ever be the sort of club with a business model that Charlesworth wants?

That's exactly it - those clubs that do succeed financially are one of two things:

i). The mega clubs with global branding and continuous participation in the latter stages of continental competitions

ii). The academy clubs that develop and sell.

Now if we're aiming to be ii)., we need to be doing a lot better than 1 potential superstar every 3-4 years.

"But serious" I hear you ask, "what about the Stokes and Evertons of the world who are swimming in English TV money". Yeah, they tread water at best. Because their players know they can ask for more money. We don't have even remotely close to a similar deal here so that's out of the question.

 

[pjennings]

I am surprised at this discussion. It has been common knowledge for many years that the COE and the football club were separate entities, with some commonality of ownership, mostly (but not totally) the same names, some differences in percentages. I am sure someone can dig up the details.

I have always assumed that the idea of the COE making money to benefit the football club would come from the owners of the COE to then afford to put more into the Club.

I am truly amazed that this is "new news" on this forum.

This is the only bit that is new.

What is new to me is that MC has stated the revenue is separate and COE revenue will not be used to support the Football club CC Mariners FC.

Now I feel that that is a quantum shift. However until I hear it from someone that is sourced it is just hearsay.

I think it was Morrow on the podcast that said that Mike had never lied to him. I have had the same experience. Previous CEO's have lied to me. Some have shook my hand while doing it and I has to check that I still had all my fingers. However, since the cleanup of management of the club I always seem to have gotten the truth. That goes from Mike, Shaun, Peter Storrie and Kathryn Duncan. I have not always agreed with what they were saying but at least I was told the truth. I have also been at forums where I hear one thing and others claim to hear something different. That could be more someone hearing what they want to hear (whether that is me or someone else). My only concern on the communication side since the management cleanup was the lack of communication on not spending the cap this season. This has been explained by Shaun now - but it is something that the club should have communicated earlier after setting the expectation that we would be more competiitve with a full cap this season.

However, back to the COE. The original 15 year plan was for the COE to provide alternate revenue streams to help the club compete. After 13 years we are still in the development stage and a lot of money is still needed to realise that goal. If that is no longer the plan then I cannot see us maintaining a spot in the HAL in the medium term. If it is still the case then the 15 years is quickly running out and with new clubs and a possibilty of promotion and relegation it really needs to be completed soon or other alternates like stadium management rights or added investors need to be found or realised. I believe the COE was the right plan for a regional club when it was first proposed. I still believe it is the right plan. However, a plan is not going to cut it - it has to be fulfilled.

We are quickly coming to the end of our season. There will be a review of the seasons fortunes. There will be new plans made. However, this will all happen with the backdrop of upheaval at the FFA, maybe expansion, maybe not, maybe a second division, maybe not, maybe with a normalisation committee, maybe not. These are very murky times in football in Australia and it is difficult to see how football will progress and how the Mariners fit into that. The critics on Fox and SBS and the papers all know what the answers are for football in Australia - I'm afraid I do not. But football will survive and thrive in spite of itself in Australia.

 

[Gratis]

Shaun,

Of my friends, family and extended family - I'm the last one watching games.

My father-in-law was the second last - he watches EVERYTHING in sport - and he gave up a few weeks ago.

I know for a fact that not one family or friend who were members have any intention of renewing.

The product is no longer worth buying. It's not your fault. But you do have the ear of anyone who can make a difference.

 

[greenlig]

Ray Gatt as the game ended...

 

[midfielder]

Ray Gatt as the game ended...

can only guess what this could mean