Second Sydney Team

[clarence]

Yes, we now have more sponsors. But ask Lyall about his experiences getting them and he'll tell you it was a harder market to crack than he initially thought.

Think back to season 1, and remember the Mariners having to host business lunches with Singo and Lyall? Remember the whisper of late player payments (a false rumour) and the so-so crowds?

And we didn't have any competition team in our own town like a western Sydney A- League club will have.

With good management, some good luck, and decent results on the field, coupled with strong community relations being built, the Mariners went on from there. It could have turned the other way if things weren't managed well enough. Thankfully we did not have the incompetence of the other two NSW based teams in OUR management team.

This is way off topic, thanx to the Mods for being patient.

 

[dibo]

This is way off topic, thanx to the Mods for being patient.

it's a good discussion, so for the benefit of forumites as a whole i might split the thread.

 

[dibo]

An examination of the differences between Sydney and the Central Coast is warranted here.

With us, theres not as much competition so you can kinda play the parochial all good Coasties get behind their team card that simply doesnt work in those bigger markets.

This would be impossible if we diluted the product down. It has to be strongly identified with the region were in, hence the signing of lots of Coast locals and strong links with CCF particularly through the club ambassadors.

The Mariners are clearly the biggest story on the Central Coast and dominate coverage in the local paper without trouble. While theres a much smaller market to draw support from, its much easier to reach the people youre trying to reach.

In Sydney, with so many different things on its inevitably (and through no fault of the Sydney administration) a different and in a way much more difficult task.

There are more competing influences, there are more stories to bump them off the back page and because of the much greater audiences of media, greater costs to running any sort of publicity campaign.

Without spending an awful lot or tightly concentrating their spend, its near impossible for them to get the same reach we get.

To make matters worse (and almost counterintuitively), the media coverage is more professional and in-depth than on the Central Coast. Because of the size of the media outlets there can be dedicated staff for whom looking after the Sydney FC coverage is a major part of their job, and these folks are serious journos.

Someone farts in their office and the Herald and Terror both have people calling for a quote to say who did it and whether it will affect selections for the weekend. If its Kossie that farts the rumours that hes lost the dressing room will come faster than you can say You could have warned us you coffee slurping bastard!

The Express offers nothing like that level of scrutiny, and in a way they cant, because their job is as much cheerleader as it is observer.

Lastly, Id be very interested to see the makeup of the supporter bases.

Off the top of the head Id guess that SFC has as a proportion of their support many many more casual supporters, by which I mean people who follow the results in the news and maybe make it to a game or two a year, than we do. We on the other hand would have more dedicated rain hail or shine supporters.

This is down to the parochialism thing. All good Coasties go to the Mariners matches. We feel an obligation to the club, as its much clearer to us that if we dont back it, it may well disappear. The feeling of responsibility is much diminished in Sydney, with so many people who can take the slack. Thats not to say that theres no chance of a problem happening there, for an example we need look no further than the Sydney Kings.

There is a corollary to this of course the people who want to be active supporters are vastly more numerous.  Our grandstand support is amazingly strong. Our active support, not so strong  This is where Sydney basically shits on us from a pretty great height. Luckily the volume of singing doesnt pay the bills, its gate receipts etc. that handle that!

 

[FFC Mariner]

Top post.

Judging the market for the game by the impact of SFC is misleading because they havent "captured" any parochialism. They have tried to create a brand rather than a club so they suffer from a lack of a loyal base.

IMHO the name was just the start of their misreading of what football and its supporters are all about. Who can feel loyalty to a brand FFS.

A W Sydney club done on the CCM/Community model will tap into the most fanatical supporter base in the game. The heartland of football in NSW, W Sydney.

SFC's chairman is talking up the Wollongong bid because they know they are in all sorts of trouble in W Syd works

 

[~Floss~]

Top post.

Proof that a fart joke will always win over the audience

 

[Bex]

I find them to be on the nose to be honest.

 

[LFCMariners]

Blacktown City have had a successful team for many years, perhaps they could step up and become the new A-League side? Home ground could be Parramatta Stadium or perhaps a new purpose-built ground at Blacktown. They'd attract support everywhere between Auburn and St Mary's IMO. Watching them play the Jets would be interesting though- like a MAJOR bogan convention...

 

[FFC Mariner]

Be v suprised if old sokka was allowed anyewhere near the next HAL franchise

 

[Sacko]

SFC's chairman is talking up the Wollongong bid because they know they are in all sorts of trouble in W Syd works

Why should the SFC chairman be allowed to talk up any bid?
It should be the FFA who decide what's for the good of the game, not an existing club with a conflict of interest....

 

[clarence]

Blacktown City have had a successful team for many years, perhaps they could step up and become the new A-League side? Home ground could be Parramatta Stadium or perhaps a new purpose-built ground at Blacktown. They'd attract support everywhere between Auburn and St Mary's IMO. Watching them play the Jets would be interesting though- like a MAJOR bogan convention...

Blacktown would be a good 'shop front' for a western Sydney syndicate to base itself from, but I believe the Blacktown are in all sorts of financial strife at the moment.  :'(

Check out this 442 rumour and 10/10 belief factor:
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/72580,blacktown-city-demons-in-financial-trouble.aspx

 

[clarence]

Be v suprised if old sokka was allowed anyewhere near the next HAL franchise

I don't think there's one State League club in NSW that could be capable of fronting up a syndicate for a western Sydney A-League franchise -they are stretched as it is keeping their own State League teams going and the juniors etc. It probably won't be a matter of not allowing them, but rather they simply cannot afford the entry fee.

 

[Bex]

Yes, but if they become an A-League team with TV coverage its a different situation all together with sponsership.

 

[Arabmariner]

Using any existing state league team regardless of sponsorship and finances will immediately alienate other supporters of existing state teams.Would supporters of Marconi,Bankstown,Sydney Utd etc follow a team born out of the existing Blacktown team.....I doubt it.The new team needs to have no ties at all with any of these existing clubs.We would end up with the 2nd Sydney team being as attractive to the punters in Western Sydney as the Flying Circus are.

Same in Melbourne where there has been talk of South Melbourne as the 2nd team.

 

[FFC Mariner]

Given that it was "fans" chanting Olympic who threw some of the flares at SFS on Saturday (according to Bling MB), you can see why noone wants those throwbacks anywhere near the HAL

Marconi are said to be desperate to be involved but I reckon it would never happen

 

[Sean]

As much as I want to see this happen (expansion), good luck getting both a second Sydney and Melbourne team in the A-league with the scenes from Saturday night. Good indicator as to how stupid a rivalry can get.

I would feel much more confident with a Geelong & Wollongong rather than a South Melb & West Syd team.

 

[Auburn Mariner]

This is a great thread, very interesting to see such good debate. Wonderful post, Dibo, one of your best. "Corollary" was my favourite, and to the youngsters, this is NOT where 4-cylinder Toyotas are made.

I still reckon that Parramatta is the go. It is a city in its own right, it is central and easy to get to. I actually think that Westerners would go as far as the Sydney Showgrounds to support their team, and this is a place where transport and parking will NEVER be an issue.

Having family in Wollongong, I can see why Frank the Hungarian would push for a team there, and I would point out the Frank does not seem to know what the term "Conflict of Interest" means. Wollongong has a strong football culture, from the many Italian, Greek & former Yugoslavians that have settled there.

The question remains, after GCU & NQU, what is the best option for Australian Football?? Is the talk of further expansion premature? As Fish pointed out at New Lambton, 2 new teams means at least 66 more players. 4 new teams in 12 months (which is what is being bandied around) means 132 new players.

Does anyone actually think that without further financial input from rich people, this country can find another 132 HAL quality players that quickly?

Second Sydney and Melbourne teams get at the heart of the battle we face against other codes; crowds. Clearly, these two cities of 4 million-plus are best able to handle two teams in the one League. I just hope that the FFA monitors the quality of football CLOSELY during the  ten-team V5 and makes decisions in the best interests of our game overall.

 

[Jesus]

This is a great thread, very interesting to see such good debate. Wonderful post, Dibo, one of your best. "Corollary" was my favourite, and to the youngsters, this is NOT where 4-cylinder Toyotas are made.

I still reckon that Parramatta is the go. It is a city in its own right, it is central and easy to get to. I actually think that Westerners would go as far as the Sydney Showgrounds to support their team, and this is a place where transport and parking will NEVER be an issue.

Having family in Wollongong, I can see why Frank the Hungarian would push for a team there, and I would point out the Frank does not seem to know what the term "Conflict of Interest" means. Wollongong has a strong football culture, from the many Italian, Greek & former Yugoslavians that have settled there.

The question remains, after GCU & NQU, what is the best option for Australian Football?? Is the talk of further expansion premature? As Fish pointed out at New Lambton, 2 new teams means at least 66 more players. 4 new teams in 12 months (which is what is being bandied around) means 132 new players.

Does anyone actually think that without further financial input from rich people, this country can find another 132 HAL quality players that quickly?

Second Sydney and Melbourne teams get at the heart of the battle we face against other codes; crowds. Clearly, these two cities of 4 million-plus are best able to handle two teams in the one League. I just hope that the FFA monitors the quality of football CLOSELY during the  ten-team V5 and makes decisions in the best interests of our game overall.

I think we will have a good indication with the quality of players in the youth league. If a number of them are ready to step up by season end will make it alot easier. I think that as the season goes on and we see how the state league players step up will be another indication, though i dont think they are going to have too many problems mostly.
Add in the bonus foreigners, as well as the possibility that new teams will begin with a larger quota and the number would be falling quite a bit from 132.
Add in some more aussies returning home, there is easily a few dozen playing for similar money overseas in no better leagues who would be good acquisitions.

By the end of that there will still be some strain. Perhaps a year or 2 between would be better.

The possibility of islanders not counting as foreiners could help a little.
As could a blanket 2/3/4 year option for all teams to increase their foreign players to 5, or possibly 6.

I expect there will be a slight drop initially in the quality of play. But would expect that within 2 years of the possible 2nd syd/melb teams coming in we would be back above it. By the time the youth league has been running for 3 or 4 years we should be producing players capable of stepping into the first team, or at least the bench without dropping off the overall quality by much or at all.

Hell if baan gets his way and gets the youth teams playing the type of football he likes, the youth players will likely add alot more flair and quality to the league in the next 5 or so years.

Personally though i long for a longer calender. I think it is probably best to leave a year between the GC and NQ teams coming in and the other joining.

Will also allow for the new teams to establish themselves a bit more before having 2 more teams to compete with for players. As well as allow of a positive flow on affect from the introduction of both sets of teams.


My big question is, presumably next season there will still be a final 4. But when we go to 12, or even 14, how will the finals look?

 

[FFC Mariner]

It wont happen but I would love it (just love it) if they dropped the finals.

League Champions is what matters everywhere not the winner of a made for pay tv cup comp.

With the extra rounds that another 4 teams will give u (33 perhaps) we dont need it anyway.

Pity theres no chance though

 

[Bear]

I agree, would be great if it happened, but no chance, ever

 

[scottmac]

I agree, would be great if it happened, but no chance, ever

There is a great chance of this happening! Over time!
IF a cup cometition ever gets off the ground, the finals of this comp can replace the made for paytv finals series. It will be up to the Aussie public to accept it and that will take time.