"I for one welcome our insect overlords" - The Politics Thread

[hasbeen]

And your point is what exactly? Other than being a Naziphile?

 

[true believer]

and now that the village idiot abbott has been exposed for the rank stupidity of turning back the boats. what happens when an
Indonesian frigate tells an Australia frigate not bring a boat into indonesian waters . do you let a harpoon missile go?

his hero the lying rodent howard says it's all rudds fault for daring to ask the question.
howards act of piracy in the case of the tampa . shows what a fine first rate, second man he really was.

 

[dibo]

TB raises good points. The most likely manifestation of the problem is a simple one - we attempt to turn a boat around, and it sinks (whether deliberately or accidentally - they're cheap boats, often overloaded). Under the Laws of the Sea, we have obligations as a nation and nearby ships have an obligation to preserve life at sea. We can't abandon or refuse to rescue people at risk of sinking in the open ocean.

I've spoken to naval personnel whose job it used to be to intercept these boats. There was a very standard problem - if the folks on the boats thought they'd be at risk of being turned around (whether that was the intent or not!), they'd scuttle the boat so there was no boat to turn around.

Boats have been set alight too, killing passengers and injuring RAN personnel, as I'll get to.

These are desperate people running for their lives. Even assuming Indonesia were willing to take the boats back (and we know they're not) the passengers and crew of the boats won't allow it to happen. Even trying it puts our RAN personnel at risk - if not of being caught in a burning boat, certainly of being caught in a sinking boat.
Doubters should read up on what was probably the most notorious incident SIEV 36 (Source = Wikipedia, of course):

SIEV 36 (Suspected Illegal Entry Vessel 36) was a vessel from Indonesia that exploded and sank off Ashmore Reef, Australia on 16 April 2009. The vessel, carrying 47 refugees and two crew, was intercepted by the Royal Australian Navy patrol boat HMAS Albany early on 15 April. A boarding party secured the vessel, but failed to locate two canisters of petrol. Although it was intended to take the crew and passengers to Christmas Island for processing, a notice informing the crew that their vessel may be returned to Indonesia was presented, and the passengers were kept in the dark about their destination. While waiting for transportation to arrive, Albany and SIEV 36 sailed in a holding pattern, with the Indonesian boat taken in tow overnight. A second patrol boat,HMAS Childers, arrived that evening, and was directed to provide a boarding party and take care of the vessel starting at 06:00 on 16 April.
Childers' boarding party arrived aboard SIEV 36 at 06:15. Shortly after, the passengers found the notice, and, assuming that they would be sent back to Indonesia, became agitated. Salt was poured into the boat's diesel engine, stalling it, and one of the petrol canisters was spread on the deck. Reinforcements were sent from Childers to restore control, and boarded shortly before the petrol was ignited; the resulting explosion tore the boat apart. RHIBs from the two patrol boats focused on recovering the nine Australian Defence Force personnel first, then began recovering others. Five passengers were killed, and many of the survivors were heavily burned; the two patrol boats sailed to the tanker Front Puffin, from where the wounded were heli-lifted to hospitals ashore.

My emphasis is added.

Most of the time they just f**k the engine and breach the hull, so the thing will never make it back to Indonesia.

So we know Indonesia won't accept us turning boats around, and have clearly told Abbott and Bishop and anyone else who'll listen on a number of times privately and taken to telling everyone publicly because the Libs keep verballing them.

We know it's not safe for asylum seekers nor for RAN personnel who are running the recovery missions on the open ocean.

Simply put - it's nothing but a slogan.

Even if Abbott puts it on a thousand kilometre high neon billboard at the edge of our territorial waters, we won't ever actually do it, so he ought to stop saying it and instead work on ideas on how better to deal with the fact that we're a rich and comfortable country signed on to the refugee conventions and goshdarnit there are a lot of asylum seekers out there desperate to gain refugee protection somewhere.

 

[midfielder]

Unlike some I am a swinger ... well as explained before when I vote... [I can't help myself being rusted on to a party and then try and defend it's bad policies [they both make mistakes] is foolish, and neither is close to right many many times]

TBH I am greedy and vote for who will meet my needs the best .... with this in mind I wonder aloud if Tony the pony or Rudd the dudd will help us with the COE and some things for Bluey...

At the COE.... lights for night training, a small grandstand say 1.5 to 3 K ..... two more fields cleared ... some additional funds for other spending... At Bluey Mariner signs at the ground....

Remember the last election Julia gave us 10 million and against the odds held on to the CC seats ... with the Dudd now making the election close they both need our swinging seats... personally I think 25 million [allowing for inflation and if the election is close] would be nice ....

 

[FFC Mariner]

Yup.

Agree totally.

Both sides are inept, useless lying turds and they both copy each others policies anyway.

Lets hope we can screw some money out of them for something important.

Like CCM

 

[true believer]

barry shows obied how it's done

the legalised mafia that is nsw liberal party has sold erraring power station for 50 million ,
this public asset was valued at a very conservite $125 million
barry gave origin 75 million compensation do you reckon there was an open tender for this crime FFS .
but wait for it 300 million has been spent on this power station in the last 4 years upgrading the place to the
largest power station in the southern hemisphere
all employees get paid a transfer payment equivalent to a redundancy of 10 million

what a great deal for nsw . a f'kn lame joke this is .
someone made a lot of money at the nsw tax payers expense

 

[hasbeen]

barry shows obied how it's done

the legalised mafia that is nsw liberal party has sold erraring power station for 50 million ,
this public asset was valued at a very conservite $125 million
barry gave origin 75 million compensation do you reckon there was an open tender for this crime FFS .
but wait for it 300 million has been spent on this power station in the last 4 years upgrading the place to the
largest power station in the southern hemisphere
all employees get paid a transfer payment equivalent to a redundancy of 10 million

what a great deal for nsw . a f'kn lame joke this is .
someone made a lot of money at the nsw tax payers expense

For a differing view (and a lot more detail) on this sale see :

http://www.watoday.com.au/opinion/e...ity-of-coal-mine-proposal-20130702-2p9v1.html

 

[midfielder]

TB

I accept you are an ALP person.... however to even try and defend the last NSW government and people like Obied weakens other comments you make...

I accept most governments have a level of corruption, everywhere in the world .....The level of corruption by the last NSW government as shown by the recent enquires is seen by most as arguably the most corrupt since the rum rebellion....

FFC Mariner above said """" Both sides are inept, useless lying turds and they both copy each others policies anyway.""""" and by and large I agree with this.... however the last NSW government well they have set the bar high for anyone to follow .... and a key reason why the ALP is under so much pressure in NSW regardless of what the Federal ALP does...

TB I am told this from a person who used to provide advice to the Rudd governments an early months of Julia's term.... when the global financial crisis hit the Federal government and their advisor's needed to pump money into the economy... many including me say the idea was right but they carried it out wrong ... i.e. pink bats, and the school upgrades ... many and as I said me included tho give it to the state gov's to spend and bring forward capital works.... as the Federal gov has little experience in running and controlling these things [this in part was proved correct] .... the reason the Fed gov did it themselves according to guy I referred to above is the Fed gov tho the NSW & QLD especially NSW [remember both ALP at the time] were so corrupt and poorly run the pump priming needed to keep the economy going would not happen... Essentially Federal ALP tho the NSW ALP was untrustworthy and that takes some doing ...

 

[dibo]

Most corrupt since the Rum Rebellion? We're talking about a number of individuals, with the most notable pair being one abusing ministerial power (Macdonald) and another abusing his indirect power (Obeid and his numbers in caucus).

It's not a patch on Bob "run over the bastards" Askin, who was (along with his Police Commissioner, Norman Allan) allegedly paid between $5,000 and $10,000 each week by Kings Cross gangster Abe Saffron, who ran the local liquor, prostitution and gambling rackets.

Askin was premier from 1965 to 1975.

$5,000 in 1975 would have been worth $31,669.28 in 2012 dollars (calculated here).
£5,000 (equivalent of $10,000) in 1966 would have been worth $120,988.02 in 2012 dollars (calculated here).

So in 2012 dollars he and his Police Commissioner were getting somewhere between $30k and $120k a week - somewhere between $1.5 million and $6 million per year *each* in direct kickbacks from gangsters.

And leaving that aside, I don't think anyone is tarring the entire Labor party with the actions of a few - nobody thinks the likes of Nathan Rees, Carmel Tebbutt, Verity Firth and Linda Burney among many, many others were anything but above reproach.

 

[midfielder]

D

You only prove my point .... Askin was corrupt [but was every member of his government as you point out with the last NSW gov]... so if I started defending him you could argue what you have .... the Rum Rebellion was the claim made at the enquiry..... twas also made in many media outlets...

I don't believe you think that the actions of the last NSW ALP gov have not hurt brand ALP in NSW ... OK State Federal I understand ... but weeks of nightly news on coal mines in the Hunter and Café's rents and other things ...

One day join the force and set yourself free from a party ... it's only then you find they more or less as bad as each other with very similar polices .... move away from the dark side...

 

[true believer]

For a differing view (and a lot more detail) on this sale see :

http://www.watoday.com.au/opinion/e...ity-of-coal-mine-proposal-20130702-2p9v1.html

mombo jumbo from of all things the west Australian
but I think the 600+ million you found is what O'Farrell increased the cost of electricity
to the nsw consumer after barry lied "there'd be no more price rises"

 

[hasbeen]

mombo jumbo from of all things the west Australian
but I think the 600+ million you found is what O'Farrell increased the cost of electricity
to the nsw consumer after barry lied "there'd be no more price rises"

Jeez, you are a number one gibberer aren't you? Address the issue instead of deflecting (which is the Labor way).

 

[true believer]

TB

I accept you are an ALP person.... however to even try and defend the last NSW government and people like Obied weakens other comments you make...

I accept most governments have a level of corruption, everywhere in the world .....The level of corruption by the last NSW government as shown by the recent enquires is seen by most as arguably the most corrupt since the rum rebellion....

FFC Mariner above said """" Both sides are inept, useless lying turds and they both copy each others policies anyway.""""" and by and large I agree with this.... however the last NSW government well they have set the bar high for anyone to follow .... and a key reason why the ALP is under so much pressure in NSW regardless of what the Federal ALP does...

TB I am told this from a person who used to provide advice to the Rudd governments an early months of Julia's term.... when the global financial crisis hit the Federal government and their advisor's needed to pump money into the economy... many including me say the idea was right but they carried it out wrong ... i.e. pink bats, and the school upgrades ... many and as I said me included tho give it to the state gov's to spend and bring forward capital works.... as the Federal gov has little experience in running and controlling these things [this in part was proved correct] .... the reason the Fed gov did it themselves according to guy I referred to above is the Fed gov tho the NSW & QLD especially NSW [remember both ALP at the time] were so corrupt and poorly run the pump priming needed to keep the economy going would not happen... Essentially Federal ALP tho the NSW ALP was untrustworthy and that takes some doing ...

middy I've never defended obeid .I pointed out he's got nothing on the libs.ie he's a rank ammeter.
indeed if you look at one of my chats with dibo you'll find I told dave borger , the nsw left . should cross the floor and vote
with the libs a no confidence motion on the government.

pink batts were a great idea. insulation reducing energy costs . a few guys got electrocuted .the Murdoch press and shock jock demigods
screamed blue murder . why the f'k metal backed insulation was never banned for domestic use is still unbelievable.
yet more people were electrocuted under howard doing roofing insulation. yet another fact omitted , again.

you being a bloke that understands business running costs would appreciate that a mad scramble to keep building jobs
that only resulted in a 10% over run is ,well outstanding

 

[true believer]

Jeez, you are a number one gibberer aren't you? Address the issue instead of deflecting (which is the Labor way).

please dill .establish a base line on anything . you can't .

 

[true believer]

the left should have crossed the floor in nsw and voted a no confidence against the then government .
10 years ago .crooked bastards like rosentol,egan,costa and Co have sold the party out for years.
they have effectively destroyed the labor party.
i expect the next centre left government to be elected (if we still live in a democracy)
will be a conglomeration of the labor left ,nationals and the net groups such as get up.
it won't be the labor party

see middy

but I could wrong on kevin lucky 13

 

[hasbeen]

"yet more people were electrocuted under howard doing roofing insulation"

Source.

 

[true believer]

it's on hansard. probably greg combet

 

[hasbeen]

ha ha, Hansard merely records what was said in Parliament, and everything is under Parliamentary Privilege, so that is no proof. Try harder.

 

[scottmac]

"yet more people were electrocuted under howard doing roofing insulation"

Source.

I worked for CSR and the media outcry over the deaths was widely derided throughout the industry. The opposition used the deaths of ordinary Australians for political gain. 4 deaths over 1,100,00 homes in 200 days.
Anyone hazard a guess as to how many workplace deaths that year?

124.

The construction industry averages around 25 workplace deaths a year since 2010. This years figure not included. The figure is around 25 - 30 for the 5 - 6 years leading up to 2010. There are no figures recorded as to how many of those are a direct cause occurred during insulation installation.

2010 was actually the second lowest amount of construction workplace deaths recorded. EVER. The figure was 21.

The amount of homes insulated in 200 days of 2010 was more than the previous 14yrs.

Worker deaths in the construction industry actually reduced by 6 over the previous year, even though there were 14yrs of home insulating fit into 200 days.
The amount of house fires directly related to insulation install before the scheme = 80 per year, or 1 in every 937 homes.
The amount of house fires directly related to insulation install during the scheme = 90, or 1 in every 12,222 homes.


You wouldn't believe the benefits now being recorded because of the scheme. People are now asking the question why they didn't finish it.

 

[dibo]

One day join the force and set yourself free from a party ... it's only then you find they more or less as bad as each other with very similar polices .... move away from the dark side...

Do you really think there's no ideological base that guides each party? Do you not think that the two parties' basic constituencies (workers for Labor, business for the Liberals) drive a fundamental difference of view on how the world works? Do you deny that there is an essential difference between the parties that revolves around collectivism vs individualism?

You might not subscribe to every individual policy of a party (and personally, I've struggled with the ALP's position on asylum seekers and marriage equality for years) but still firmly believe that the ideological base of the party will necessarily lead to a better government than their opposition.

For that reason, I'll always vote for a Labor candidate even over a 'good' Liberal candidate.

For example, I could never vote for Malcolm Turnbull. He might make nice noises on this or that, but he's still a Lib - he believes in kicking unions apart and leaving workers divided and easy pickings for employers. He desires freedom from government rather than freedom through government - so at his heart he'll choose budget cuts and tax cuts over socialised education and health that provide opportunity and protection for all. His interest is in providing an opening for business and the elite to succeed so we can all get some of the trickle down. Of course, if you feed the horses enough oats, some passes through for the sparrows...

He can make all the nice noises on reconciliation and marriage equality and carbon pricing that he likes; he's still a paid up member of a party that takes what is (to me) an abhorrent position on too many issues to consider voting for them *because of what they believe in*.

Give me Malcolm Turnbull and an endorsed Labor candidate and you won't need to ask me where my pencil is going to hit the paper.

The notion that somehow I'm a sucker or on the dark side for believing in a party is itself pretty naive. It's ignoring some basic facts about those parties and how they govern. It's also leaving yourself open to being convinced by whatever was the most catchy three word slogan during the campaign. Look under the bonnet before you buy.

You only need to spend the day listening to them speak about an issue in Parliament when it's *not* a big set-piece speech - where they're simply talking about what they want to see in policy or legislation - to work out on a pretty basic level who you agree with and who you don't. I'd particularly suggest you do this before suggesting people are somehow ignorant or blind for supporting a party rather than being a swinging voter.