• Join ccmfans.net

    ccmfans.net is the Central Coast Mariners fan community, and was formed in 2004, so basically the beginning of time for the Mariners. Things have changed a lot over the years, but one thing has remained constant and that is our love of the Mariners. People come and go, some like to post a lot and others just like to read. It's up to you how you participate in the community!

    If you want to get rid of this message, simply click on Join Now or head over to https://www.ccmfans.net/community/register/ to join the community! It only takes a few minutes, and joining will let you post your thoughts and opinions on all things Mariners, Football, and whatever else pops into your mind. If posting is not your thing, you can interact in other ways, including voting on polls, and unlock options only available to community members.

    ccmfans.net is not only for Mariners fans either. Most of us are bonded by our support for the Mariners, but if you are a fan of another club (except the Scum, come on, we need some standards), feel free to join and get into some banter.

Bluetongue expansion

skilbeck

Well-Known Member
with all the talk about stadiums and even dibos design plans etc. heres an article we may want to consider and I think clubs that are in the process of building or upgrading stadiums should have had a read of this: shouldve taken a hint Melbourne Victory, Scumcastle, GCG talking about your proposed stadium capacities

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/football_stadiums_technical_recommendations_and_requirements_en_8211.pdf
 

thomas477

Well-Known Member
It would be a shame that Central Coast wouldnt get a world cup game since they were one of the founding A-League clubs (plus its easier to get to then shitney)
 

Jesus

Jesus
thomas477 said:
It would be a shame that Central Coast wouldnt get a world cup game since they were one of the founding A-League clubs (plus its easier to get to then shitney)

Even if they did not think that the CC could fill a 40k stadium on its own during the world cup. Its proximity to sydney and newcastle would surely rule that out. If sydney can only have 2, then CC will surely be the 4th NSW stadium for the world cup.

The fact is the world cup was worth 29bil to korea and japan. The govt can afford to throw the best part of a bil into high quality purpose football stadiums. And another couple of bil on infrastructure that they could use anyway, but this way, as with the olympics, they get paid back for.
 

skilbeck

Well-Known Member
well whatever the case both the coast and newcastle would only get games like Angola vs Ecuador or Slovenia vs Saudi Arabia. From the quarters onwards I could only imagine state capitals being used

Opening game, a semi final and the third place match would be in Melbourne, Brisbane would have the other semi final and Sydney would have the final IMO
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
Jesus said:
The fact is the world cup was worth 29bil to korea and japan. The govt can afford to throw the best part of a bil into high quality purpose football stadiums. And another couple of bil on infrastructure that they could use anyway, but this way, as with the olympics, they get paid back for.

there was a really interesting article in the business section of saturday's herald that put some harder light on these sorts of claims (mostly aimed at the sydney olympics):

No medals for economic benefits of the Games

    * Jacob Saulwick
    * April 12, 2008

Everyone liked the Sydney Olympics. For some, they were a chance to reach new heights of sporting achievement. For many others, they were a two-week window into a world where binge drinking, in the right spirit and properly accompanied by well-lit public transport and entertainment, can be a force for good.

But the economic impact of the Olympics is a lot more contentious and complicated. Before the Games - before the ceremony, before the torch lapped its way around town, and before the first sod of Homebush soil was turned - the boosters waxed lyrical about the economic growth it would stimulate. The arguments were not new, but standard issue for those touting big events, particularly when they are trying to squeeze money out of governments.

Eight years and innumerable health and transport crises later these arguments bear some testing.

In Sydney's case, the Olympics were meant to stimulate a wave of extra tourist dollars - not just during the Games but in the years that followed. The Games would offer an opportunity to "showcase" the city. Once "showcased" it would then be an irresistible lure. Sydney's bars, hotels and its redundant monorail would hum with a new lease of life.

The tourism boom, however, never happened. Or if it did, there was nothing particularly Olympian about it. To be sure, the low dollar made the 2000s a great time to be in the tourism game. But as a recent study by James Giesecke and John Madden from the Centre of Policy Studies at Monash University points out, in the years since 2001, foreign tourism to NSW grew by less than tourism to Australia as a whole.

Another argument used by spruikers of big events is that they have a "multiplier" effect on broader economic development. This is a simple argument to understand and a simpler one to sell.

So, booking Tim Freedman for an outdoor concert has the initial result of putting money in the pocket of a Newtown singer-songwriter. Once he comes to perform, however, the concert creates work for the people who sell home-made lemonade in big plastic cups. As it does for bus drivers needed to shuttle people to the gig. And cleaners who arrive in the early morning with bags and brushes and pick up all the cups. Like a pebble dropped in a pool, the initial investment ripples wider.

This argument, particularly on an Olympic scale, is a powerful one. It has the ring of John Maynard Keynes about it. To build a stadium you sure need a lot of workers, a lot of cranes, a lot of bricks, a lot of mortar and a lot of hard plastic seats.

But what a simple "multiplier" analysis fails to capture is that resources have to be redirected from elsewhere. If you build a stadium, you might not build, say, the odd emergency ward. If Freedman plays the Domain, he cannot play Revesby Workers.

And what Giesecke and Madden also argue is that if you are interested in stimulating the economy in the long term, building sporting venues is not the ideal way to go about it. Why? Because the billions tipped into them do not add to the aggregate stock of productive capital in the years following the Games. Equestrian centres, softball compounds and man-made rapids are not particularly useful beyond their immediate function.

In fact, because so much taxpayer money was funnelled into relatively unproductive Games-related projects, in the years since the Olympics, the two economists estimate that $2.1 billion has been shaved from public consumption.

This does not mean that there was no benefit from having the Games or that they should not have been held. It is just that, on their analysis, the benefit in terms of what a good time we all had should be equal to $2.1 billion.

(To be fair to the Games, this is $2.1 billion spread over a number of years and the figure relies on certain assumptions like full employment and little spare capacity.)

But "it is clearly important that citizens of countries bidding for mega sporting events be aware that such events may not bring a double dividend of intangible benefits accompanied by an economic stimulus," Giesecke and Madden write.

While there might have been an intangible dividend from the Sydney Olympic Games, there was no double economic dividend from them.

Cities across the world are constantly testing this argument.

A British study this year tried to put a value on the intangible benefits of hosting the London Olympic Games. That report, published in Urban Studies, reckoned that Britons would be prepared to pay 2 billion ($4.2 billion) towards hosting the Games.

Then of course there is Melbourne and its grand prix. The Australian Grand Prix Corporation regularly trots out estimates of the economic benefit Victorians enjoy from hosting the grand prix, putting the total at more than $1.5 billion since 1996.

The critics say the estimates are bogus. For one thing, any supposed benefit on tourism is wiped out by the volumes of appalled Melburnians leaving town for the weekend.

In the United States, the debate has a subprime ring to it. During the housing boom - since busted - state governments and city councils assisted with the construction of numerous large stadiums, often touting their important contribution to economic development.

And according to one report, George Bush, President and one-time baseball club owner, was one major beneficiary of this practice.

Last year the New York Times investigative reporter David Cay Johnston's book Free Lunch outlined the way in which the owners of the Texas Rangers baseball team, of whom Bush was one, got their hands on millions of dollars through a publicly underwritten stadium.

In Johnston's account, Bush, as the former governor of Texas, owes some two-thirds of his fortune to a sales tax levied to build a stadium. While the stadium was built from the tax revenue, he and partners subsequently bought it back from the local government for a song.

And people complain about SOCOG.
 

Jesus

Jesus
The olympics is slightly different, since outside of the olympics no one watches those sports. But football stadiums would be used after the time. Not jsut by clubs, but by nrl potentially, by the socceroos.

The olympics brought in some goods infrastructure like roads, rail, that would not have been funded otherwise.

Sydney also failed to invest anything in tourism attractions post olympics. Everyone saw sydney. But what is there to do in sydney? You can look at a few things, but nothing major to do.

If Sydeny wants to use the world cup to increase tourism post world cup, it needs to invest in other tourism areas. But it is a chance to let corporations and tourists pay for sporting infrastructure, as well as roads and rail.
------------------

On the other note, I would not expect Bluey would hold any semi's.
 

Pokes

Well-Known Member
Could just, uh, knock down the CCLC?

Or just shift it a bit...

OR.

Re-do that whole "Froggy's" part fo gosford, turn THAT into the Leagues club, then expand the stadium.

Or we could just re-open Froggy's, and put in a bar! Oooh drinking + roller skating in Mariners gear would be fun.....

*day dreams*
 

thomas477

Well-Known Member
Jesus said:
thomas477 said:
It would be a shame that Central Coast wouldnt get a world cup game since they were one of the founding A-League clubs (plus its easier to get to then shitney)

Even if they did not think that the CC could fill a 40k stadium on its own during the world cup. Its proximity to sydney and newcastle would surely rule that out. If sydney can only have 2, then CC will surely be the 4th NSW stadium for the world cup.

The fact is the world cup was worth 29bil to korea and japan. The govt can afford to throw the best part of a bil into high quality purpose football stadiums. And another couple of bil on infrastructure that they could use anyway, but this way, as with the olympics, they get paid back for.

CC has room, just have to knock down a couple of buildings 1st :D
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
thomas477 said:
Jesus said:
thomas477 said:
It would be a shame that Central Coast wouldnt get a world cup game since they were one of the founding A-League clubs (plus its easier to get to then shitney)

Even if they did not think that the CC could fill a 40k stadium on its own during the world cup. Its proximity to sydney and newcastle would surely rule that out. If sydney can only have 2, then CC will surely be the 4th NSW stadium for the world cup.

The fact is the world cup was worth 29bil to korea and japan. The govt can afford to throw the best part of a bil into high quality purpose football stadiums. And another couple of bil on infrastructure that they could use anyway, but this way, as with the olympics, they get paid back for.

CC has room, just have to knock down a couple of buildings 1st :D

where's the bad bit?
 
P

Pete

Guest
Dibo, re: your quote from the SMH about the lost Tourism dollars post Sydney Olympics.

Firstly, the 911 attack happened within 12 months of the Olympics, and with it a lot -and I mean a LOT - of tourism dollars went immediately following that and the reforms of airline operations, security and immigration processing did put a huge dent in projections post Olympics.

Secondly, any financial gain the NSW Govt. got from the Olympics would have been wasted on projects that cost them a lot of money - that was all dragged out in the last state election and used against the NSW Govt. The likes of Carl Scully has a lot to answer for, in that regards.

In my mind, the only benefit of the Sydney Olympics has been the rejuvenation of the Homebush precinct, and the building of some great sporting facilities. That was my enthusiasm for the Games in the first place, and I could not have cared if we didn't get a cent from projected tourism opportunities.
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
Spud said:
Dibo, re: your quote from the SMH about the lost Tourism dollars post Sydney Olympics.

Firstly, the 911 attack happened within 12 months of the Olympics, and with it a lot -and I mean a LOT - of tourism dollars went immediately following that and the reforms of airline operations, security and immigration processing did put a huge dent in projections post Olympics.

Secondly, any financial gain the NSW Govt. got from the Olympics would have been wasted on projects that cost them a lot of money - that was all dragged out in the last state election and used against the NSW Govt. The likes of Carl Scully has a lot to answer for, in that regards.

In my mind, the only benefit of the Sydney Olympics has been the rejuvenation of the Homebush precinct, and the building of some great sporting facilities. That was my enthusiasm for the Games in the first place, and I could not have cared if we didn't get a cent from projected tourism opportunities.

the point of the column was that there's a more fundamental problem with the calculation of economic benefits from sporting events.

the 'multiplier effect' (where people coming out to watch a sporting event will also spend money on other things and create income for businesses indirectly as well as just the ticket price) is flawed because people spending money in one place are simply moving it from where they would have otherwise spent it. the whitlams playing in the park means they're not playing in revesby is another example.

only to the extent that people are spending money that wouldn't otherwise be spent (i.e. they're coming from overseas) does it create a net benefit, the rest is just shuffling.

where people coming from overseas and spending money by so much as to create new jobs and boost incomes in a way that lasts after the games, that's your long-term boost.

an example would be people not in the labour force (i.e. a stay at home mum) getting a job for the games/world cup/etc. and by spending their new income they boost demand enough that employers need to keep them on, rather than them going back out of the labour force after the event. this will only be a fractional gain, not all the jobs will remain.

i'm not saying we shouldn't do these things, build these grounds, host these events and so on, because in the end people like to do it. the dollars don't always stack up but not everything revolves solely around dollars - bread and roses and all that jazz.
 

Jesus

Jesus
The olympics comes in a bout even usually. After infrustructure costs etc.
The world cup runs a clear profit. Also, since some of the infrastructure already was built for the olympics, would save some of that money. had we been able to force more football infrustructure then, we would not need to spend as much now also
 

Sonic_beats_Mario

Well-Known Member
but if Bluetongue was good enough for the Rugby World Cup why isnt it for Soccer World Cup.

Who cares if they are nobodies we will still go! If they want to bring the World Cup to the people they need to play in places like Bluetongue.

If they want purpose built football grounds thats most of the large grounds in Australia out cos they are multi-purpose and im sure the AFL wont be giving up the MCG in footy season anytime soon
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
Sonic_beats_Mario said:
but if Bluetongue was good enough for the Rugby World Cup why isnt it for Soccer World Cup.

:piralaugh:



sorry.

no, here it come again!

:piralaugh::piralaugh::piralaugh:

the football world cup is the biggest single-sport event in the world - they wouldn't take Adelaide, Townsville, Canberra, Gosford, Launceston or Wollongong, because they're all too small and too shit.

Sonic_beats_Mario said:
Who cares if they are nobodies we will still go! If they want to bring the World Cup to the people they need to play in places like Bluetongue.

If they want purpose built football grounds thats most of the large grounds in Australia out cos they are multi-purpose and im sure the AFL wont be giving up the MCG in footy season anytime soon

if we get the world cup (and frankly the asian cup is a much better chance than the world cup!) then we're building a lot of brand new grounds, just like germany did and korea and japan before them. USA already had a lot of huge NFL grounds but before that italy spent shitloads on their grounds too. colombia lost the right to hold 86 because they didn't do enough (and due to security concerns) so if anyone thinks that new grounds won't be built for a world cup then they need to look at the history.
 

Jesus

Jesus
dibo said:
Sonic_beats_Mario said:
but if Bluetongue was good enough for the Rugby World Cup why isnt it for Soccer World Cup.

:piralaugh:



sorry.

no, here it come again!

:piralaugh::piralaugh::piralaugh:

the football world cup is the biggest single-sport event in the world - they wouldn't take Adelaide, Townsville, Canberra, Gosford, Launceston or Wollongong, because they're all too small and too shit.

Sonic_beats_Mario said:
Who cares if they are nobodies we will still go! If they want to bring the World Cup to the people they need to play in places like Bluetongue.

If they want purpose built football grounds thats most of the large grounds in Australia out cos they are multi-purpose and im sure the AFL wont be giving up the MCG in footy season anytime soon

if we get the world cup (and frankly the asian cup is a much better chance than the world cup!) then we're building a lot of brand new grounds, just like germany did and korea and japan before them. USA already had a lot of huge NFL grounds but before that italy spent shitloads on their grounds too. colombia lost the right to hold 86 because they didn't do enough (and due to security concerns) so if anyone thinks that new grounds won't be built for a world cup then they need to look at the history.

If they can spend millions on equestrian centre etc for little return, they can spend that money of football stadiums that will bring a return.
 

dibo

Well-Known Member
Jesus said:
dibo said:
Sonic_beats_Mario said:
but if Bluetongue was good enough for the Rugby World Cup why isnt it for Soccer World Cup.

:piralaugh:



sorry.

no, here it come again!

:piralaugh::piralaugh::piralaugh:

the football world cup is the biggest single-sport event in the world - they wouldn't take Adelaide, Townsville, Canberra, Gosford, Launceston or Wollongong, because they're all too small and too shit.

Sonic_beats_Mario said:
Who cares if they are nobodies we will still go! If they want to bring the World Cup to the people they need to play in places like Bluetongue.

If they want purpose built football grounds thats most of the large grounds in Australia out cos they are multi-purpose and im sure the AFL wont be giving up the MCG in footy season anytime soon

if we get the world cup (and frankly the asian cup is a much better chance than the world cup!) then we're building a lot of brand new grounds, just like germany did and korea and japan before them. USA already had a lot of huge NFL grounds but before that italy spent shitloads on their grounds too. colombia lost the right to hold 86 because they didn't do enough (and due to security concerns) so if anyone thinks that new grounds won't be built for a world cup then they need to look at the history.

If they can spend millions on equestrian centre etc for little return, they can spend that money of football stadiums that will bring a return.

sorry, i'd been meaning to come back to that point and yeah, i think you're right jesus, there's much more likely to be a return on a football ground (built with all 3 local rectangular codes in mind i'm afraid - so we'll be a fair way behind the goal lines...) than a rowing centre.
 

skilbeck

Well-Known Member
Adelaide is the major concern as football is the only rectangular field game thats played there. besides, is AUFC selling out hindmarsh on a weekly basis? because if they arent that could be a proble,
 

Jesus

Jesus
skilbeck said:
Adelaide is the major concern as football is the only rectangular field game thats played there. besides, is AUFC selling out hindmarsh on a weekly basis? because if they arent that could be a proble,

Depends where the new stadium was. Also, we are talking about completion close to 10 years away.
 

Online statistics

Members online
19
Guests online
779
Total visitors
798

Forum statistics

Threads
6,737
Messages
382,601
Members
2,715
Latest member
ForzaFred
Top