Arabmariner
Well-Known Member
Make them full time.
When they f#%k up dock their wages.
F&%kin Breeze would go bankrupt!!
When they f#%k up dock their wages.
F&%kin Breeze would go bankrupt!!
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Give the A League Ref's A Break
- Thread starter Yellowbeard
- Start date
northernspirit
Well-Known Member
this is exactly why i never took up reffing, everyone hates u except some twat swatting flies with a flag... even in suburban park football i saw players, coaches even the crowd abusing the ref, couldnt pay me to do that 
Tassiemariner
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the advice on what i'm getting myself into NS.
Starting to make me regret doing my referees course tomorrow night
Still i'd rather have refereeing as a 1st job than working in macdonalds on $6 an hour.
Starting to make me regret doing my referees course tomorrow night
Still i'd rather have refereeing as a 1st job than working in macdonalds on $6 an hour.
Arabmariner
Well-Known Member
Have never and never will abuse a ref at lower levels other than perhaps a low level "aw c,mon ref" type of thing. :-Xnorthernspirit said:this is exactly why i never took up reffing, everyone hates u except some twat swatting flies with a flag... even in suburban park football i saw players, coaches even the crowd abusing the ref, couldnt pay me to do that
However at the top level in front of good crowds who have paid good cash to watch they are up for abuse when they f#$k up just like the players.
As for the twat swatting flies,he,s only doing that cause he,s worse than the twat with the whistle!!
Capn Gus Bloodbeard
Well-Known Member
Sorry in advance for the lengthy post. It's something that ticks me off, hence the rant.
Don't be surprised if referees tell you where to go
Seriously though (no referee should be telling a player 'where to go' in the generally understood meaning of that phrase), most referees will be happy to talk (briefly - they're not going to engage in a discussion) to any player who approaches them calmly - situation depending.
I've had a few players come up to me in a huff and yelling at me, demanding to know why I did this and not that, then when I tell them to calm down and walk away, they've tried to say that they can talk to me, they're the captain.
"Sorry mate, it isn't league, now walk away"
No player has a particular 'right' to talk to the referee - and most referees are going to treat the captains just like any other player. Question a decision (what was that for ref?) calmly and you'll get a response. Shout at the ref and you'll get told to go away, and probably get booked while you're at it.
Hey, if you're going to tell your team that only you're to talk to the ref then it's probably not a bad idea as it may reduce the number of cards your team gets - just don't think that you're going to get any special priveleges because you're wearing an armband. Dissent is a stupid, stupid caution - and abuse is a stupid, stupid red. Considering that multiple cautions lead to suspension, any measure you're going to take to try and reduce your team's caution count - particularly for stupid cautions - is probably a good one (just want to make sure you don't think I was belittling your or writing off what you're doing - I simply wanted to ensure you didn't carry any misconceptions about what you're doing).
As for the article, well I've explained in other threads what I think the problem with the refereeing is.
In short, all the HAL officials are highly talented and competent officials. Watch Shield, Breeze or Williams ref an international match and 9/10 they'll absolutely nail it. Watch them ref a HAL match and 9/10 they'll screw up - badly.
So why are these highly talented officials screwing up? The fact that all officials are making the same errors on a regular basis indicates that it isn't the officials themselves who are to blame, but the way they're managed.
Perhaps over familiarisation with the teams is an issue (the same refs week in, week out...)
I think the part time nature of the job is an issue - these guys have full time jobs, plus overnight trips for HAL on weekends (and possibly a 2nd match as 4th official), plus several training sessions in the week. That's a lot of stress, and a lot of physical and mental fatigue. You can't expect them to be at the top of their game under those conditions.
What are the other problems with management? Are the match inspectors (each match is inspected, with the report written after the inspector both attends the match live then views the video, which he receives on the night, and the referee eventually gets) being critical on their wrong decisions? Or are they being commended for keeping players on the park (some believe that refs should keep their cards in the pocket and let the players basically do whatever they like. I strongly disagree - the fans don't want to see the players get away with blue murder, or whinge and whine like prats. What the fans want is consistency - become heavy handed, and as long as it's consistent, the fans will accept it).
The big question - and believe me, this is a massive, massive question - are the inspectors performing their duties with the same integrity that the referees do?
What about those who go even higher than the inspectors - exactly what instructions are these guys getting?
In NSW we have a document which clearly states that visual dissent - throwing the ball down, mimicking the showing of a card, even throwing your arms up in the air while having a whinge - MUST be cautioned. Mobbing the referee (group dissent), MUST be cautioned. Heck, most of those instructions are identical the world over - yet they're being completely ignored in the HAL. And universally. Why?
As for the 'buffer zone' around the referee, this is already a widely taught strategy - but mass dissent is becoming so prevalent that this technique is becoming impractical. And because there's been no widespread address of the issue, it makes it very difficult for a single referee to do anything about it.
HAL officials are more lenient than just about everything than most officials around the world, and are ignoring some basic facets of refereeing (like the aforementioned issues regarding visual dissent). Why? The fact that it happens across the board indicates that it's not the individual referees at fault - it's the way they're being managed.
As for the article, I'm all for addressing the dissent issue. Whatever happens at the top, filters all the way down to U/10G. The kids - and even the premier league players - all mimic what they see on TV because they think it's acceptable behaviour. Once it becomes widespread, the poor local referees is forced to raise his tolerance levels, and the cycle continues to enable football to have absolutely ridiculous levels of abuse towards match officials - levels which would not be tolerated in any other sport.
Having said that, you can talk and talk and talk. The FFA needs to come out with a clear instruction to remind HAL officials that visual dissent will be punished with a caution. Abusing the referee (how many times were players clearly seen on TV to tell the ref to F*** off? Heck, once in Season 1 Kevin bloody Muscat actually threatened an AR!!!) will be dealt with according to the Laws Of The Game - red card. Group dissent will result in all players being cautioned.
Crack down (and this should also apply to other things the refs are ignoring - studs up challenges aimed hard and fast, directly at players are another big issue) and the players will get the message, and the fans will accept it. Stop saying 'what can we do?' And just bloody well do something about it. Nothing will happen unless something tangible is done about it.
And then it'll be easy for the associations at the lower levels to follow suit.
marinermick - Poll was a brilliant referee who stuffed up a big game. One single glaring error forever mars him in the eyes of some - never mind the fact that 3 other officials at the match should've caught his mistake!
Though the World Cup is a great example of what I was talking about. Notice how bad the refereeing there was?
Why is that?
Because FIFA took these referees - the best in the World - and said to them 'Ok, now I want you to forget everything you know about refereeing. This is what we want you to do'.
When you try to unlearn then restructure talent and knowledge in that fashion, it won't work. It'll degrade the mental processes required to do the job, and invariably those people will stuff up. What FIFA have (hopefully) learnt from that WC is to take the world's best officials, and let them BE the world's best officials instead of treating them like first year juniors and trying to reeducate them, make them ignore years of experience.
What makes you think that the FFA haven't made the exact same mistake, and are just too slow (or perhaps worse - I shudder to think of the politics that would take place in that organisation) to realise it?
ryan said:I am captaining my side this season and I will be wearing an armband to remind the refs that I am questioning their decisions on behalf of my team, not just because I want to stir
I will try to make sure that it is only me and the player allegedly offending that talk with the ref.
Don't be surprised if referees tell you where to go
Seriously though (no referee should be telling a player 'where to go' in the generally understood meaning of that phrase), most referees will be happy to talk (briefly - they're not going to engage in a discussion) to any player who approaches them calmly - situation depending.
I've had a few players come up to me in a huff and yelling at me, demanding to know why I did this and not that, then when I tell them to calm down and walk away, they've tried to say that they can talk to me, they're the captain.
"Sorry mate, it isn't league, now walk away"
No player has a particular 'right' to talk to the referee - and most referees are going to treat the captains just like any other player. Question a decision (what was that for ref?) calmly and you'll get a response. Shout at the ref and you'll get told to go away, and probably get booked while you're at it.
Hey, if you're going to tell your team that only you're to talk to the ref then it's probably not a bad idea as it may reduce the number of cards your team gets - just don't think that you're going to get any special priveleges because you're wearing an armband. Dissent is a stupid, stupid caution - and abuse is a stupid, stupid red. Considering that multiple cautions lead to suspension, any measure you're going to take to try and reduce your team's caution count - particularly for stupid cautions - is probably a good one (just want to make sure you don't think I was belittling your or writing off what you're doing - I simply wanted to ensure you didn't carry any misconceptions about what you're doing).
As for the article, well I've explained in other threads what I think the problem with the refereeing is.
In short, all the HAL officials are highly talented and competent officials. Watch Shield, Breeze or Williams ref an international match and 9/10 they'll absolutely nail it. Watch them ref a HAL match and 9/10 they'll screw up - badly.
So why are these highly talented officials screwing up? The fact that all officials are making the same errors on a regular basis indicates that it isn't the officials themselves who are to blame, but the way they're managed.
Perhaps over familiarisation with the teams is an issue (the same refs week in, week out...)
I think the part time nature of the job is an issue - these guys have full time jobs, plus overnight trips for HAL on weekends (and possibly a 2nd match as 4th official), plus several training sessions in the week. That's a lot of stress, and a lot of physical and mental fatigue. You can't expect them to be at the top of their game under those conditions.
What are the other problems with management? Are the match inspectors (each match is inspected, with the report written after the inspector both attends the match live then views the video, which he receives on the night, and the referee eventually gets) being critical on their wrong decisions? Or are they being commended for keeping players on the park (some believe that refs should keep their cards in the pocket and let the players basically do whatever they like. I strongly disagree - the fans don't want to see the players get away with blue murder, or whinge and whine like prats. What the fans want is consistency - become heavy handed, and as long as it's consistent, the fans will accept it).
The big question - and believe me, this is a massive, massive question - are the inspectors performing their duties with the same integrity that the referees do?
What about those who go even higher than the inspectors - exactly what instructions are these guys getting?
In NSW we have a document which clearly states that visual dissent - throwing the ball down, mimicking the showing of a card, even throwing your arms up in the air while having a whinge - MUST be cautioned. Mobbing the referee (group dissent), MUST be cautioned. Heck, most of those instructions are identical the world over - yet they're being completely ignored in the HAL. And universally. Why?
As for the 'buffer zone' around the referee, this is already a widely taught strategy - but mass dissent is becoming so prevalent that this technique is becoming impractical. And because there's been no widespread address of the issue, it makes it very difficult for a single referee to do anything about it.
HAL officials are more lenient than just about everything than most officials around the world, and are ignoring some basic facets of refereeing (like the aforementioned issues regarding visual dissent). Why? The fact that it happens across the board indicates that it's not the individual referees at fault - it's the way they're being managed.
As for the article, I'm all for addressing the dissent issue. Whatever happens at the top, filters all the way down to U/10G. The kids - and even the premier league players - all mimic what they see on TV because they think it's acceptable behaviour. Once it becomes widespread, the poor local referees is forced to raise his tolerance levels, and the cycle continues to enable football to have absolutely ridiculous levels of abuse towards match officials - levels which would not be tolerated in any other sport.
Having said that, you can talk and talk and talk. The FFA needs to come out with a clear instruction to remind HAL officials that visual dissent will be punished with a caution. Abusing the referee (how many times were players clearly seen on TV to tell the ref to F*** off? Heck, once in Season 1 Kevin bloody Muscat actually threatened an AR!!!) will be dealt with according to the Laws Of The Game - red card. Group dissent will result in all players being cautioned.
Crack down (and this should also apply to other things the refs are ignoring - studs up challenges aimed hard and fast, directly at players are another big issue) and the players will get the message, and the fans will accept it. Stop saying 'what can we do?' And just bloody well do something about it. Nothing will happen unless something tangible is done about it.
And then it'll be easy for the associations at the lower levels to follow suit.
marinermick - Poll was a brilliant referee who stuffed up a big game. One single glaring error forever mars him in the eyes of some - never mind the fact that 3 other officials at the match should've caught his mistake!
Though the World Cup is a great example of what I was talking about. Notice how bad the refereeing there was?
Why is that?
Because FIFA took these referees - the best in the World - and said to them 'Ok, now I want you to forget everything you know about refereeing. This is what we want you to do'.
When you try to unlearn then restructure talent and knowledge in that fashion, it won't work. It'll degrade the mental processes required to do the job, and invariably those people will stuff up. What FIFA have (hopefully) learnt from that WC is to take the world's best officials, and let them BE the world's best officials instead of treating them like first year juniors and trying to reeducate them, make them ignore years of experience.
What makes you think that the FFA haven't made the exact same mistake, and are just too slow (or perhaps worse - I shudder to think of the politics that would take place in that organisation) to realise it?
ryan
Well-Known Member
I completely understand and agree with you. I am not after special privileges but I am perhaps a fair bit calmer than a lot of the players on my team and I do think my attitude is less likely to earn a yellow than some teammates. If you ref my team this year I'm sure you'll find this to be true. I am not one to abuse referees and I certainly will not be in their ears all game. I have a lot of respect for refs and we certainly need more of them.
Capn Gus Bloodbeard
Well-Known Member
Good on you mate. I've reffed a couple of teams where the captain's adopted a similar approach to you - and generally it's worked, because that team has their 'rule' in place, the captain usually tells his teammates to shut up pretty quick once they say something, and have usually approached me calmly
I suppose it makes sense - the ref's probably going to respond better to one player saying 'hey ref, what was that for?' than 6 players in a circle around him all trying to make themselves heard while trying to find out what something was for ;-)
I suppose it makes sense - the ref's probably going to respond better to one player saying 'hey ref, what was that for?' than 6 players in a circle around him all trying to make themselves heard while trying to find out what something was for ;-)
Omni
Well-Known Member
Capn Gus Bloodbeard said:Good on you mate. I've reffed a couple of teams where the captain's adopted a similar approach to you - and generally it's worked, because that team has their 'rule' in place, the captain usually tells his teammates to shut up pretty quick once they say something, and have usually approached me calmly
I suppose it makes sense - the ref's probably going to respond better to one player saying 'hey ref, what was that for?' than 6 players in a circle around him all trying to make themselves heard while trying to find out what something was for ;-)
The sad one is when the captain is a brilliant bloke and is happy to discuss and is totally supportive of cards for dissent but his team mates suck and you send two of them off for 2 cautions for dissent.
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