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Cockerill on second tier football.

Sean

Well-Known Member
http://www.smh.com.au/news/football/ffa-must-act-to-avoid-rugbys-ills/2008/04/14/1208025091340.html


FFA must act to avoid rugby's ills
Michael Cockring

RUGBY is in crisis, or so the story goes. Football has never been in better shape, and so it seems. But look beneath the surface and football is in grave danger of repeating rugby's mistakes. The question is whether the custodians of the game can head off the danger before it's too late.

The A-League season is over, the Socceroos are in recess, but football never stops. The glitz may be missing, but the energy isn't. It's there on suburban fields across the country every weekend. Those who pay to watch the A-League, or the national team, dip into their pockets again for the privilege of playing the game they love. Football's great strength - the one that nourished it through the hard times - has always been its participation rate. It's the envy of the other codes, which charge a lot less and give a lot more. Truth be told, football's staggering growth has been achieved by accident, not design. But luck always runs out in the end.

As the AFL gets ready to open the war chest for another assault on the hearts and minds of the uncommitted, the FFA needs to react. It can't spend money it doesn't have, but it can spend time. And this is the time - when the grassroots has roused itself - to start listening, or there's trouble ahead.

When Frank Lowy led the revolution in 2003, he drew a line in the sand. His lieutenant, John O'Neill, summed it up with typical panache. On one side was "old soccer". On the other was "new football". It was a philosophy for the time, but it served its purpose. It's time to put a divided game back together again.

Before the A-League, there was the NSL. For 27 years, it was the showpiece competition of the game. It had its faults, but it did have longevity. And in that time, for better or worse, it built up a foundation: generations of players, supporters, coaches and backers. Some of these people jumped across the divide and are involved in the A-League. Many others didn't, however, and the perception is strong that the NSL has been air-brushed from history.

The fact is it's still there. In second-tier leagues across the country, famous clubs such as Adelaide City, Sydney Olympic, South Melbourne, Sydney United, Brisbane Strikers and Marconi are still surviving. But they're not thriving, and many would argue that they're dying. It's not a matter of saving these clubs, per se. It's a matter of giving them - as well as emerging district clubs such as Manly United, Sutherland Sharks and Macarthur Rams - a reason to keep investing. Second-tier football across Australia is in crisis, and in the long term the A-League cannot exist in splendid isolation.
Which is where the rugby comparison is so striking. When rugby went professional 12 years ago, head office focused solely on the pointy end of the game: the Wallabies and the provinces. Clubs such as Randwick, Gordon, Eastwood, Brothers and Manly were left to wither on the vine. A decade of neglect has left rugby suffering in the numbers game. Fewer players. Fewer viewers. Fewer supporters. Less money. That's what happens when you weaken the rest of the pyramid. It cracks.

Football hasn't cracked up, yet. But after five years of apathy, the signs are worrying. Take Sydney Olympic for example. Last weekend, one of the best-supported clubs in the old NSL hosted Penrith-Nepean United in front of just 800 fans at Belmore. The faces in the stands were the same, but there were not nearly as many of them. In the halcyon days of Nick Politis, this club spent about $3 million a year on football. Now, it spends about 10 per cent of that. Yet the club still fields six youth league teams, which is six more than Sydney FC. Grassroots football still funnels into second-tier leagues around the country, and clubs such as Sydney Olympic continue to shoulder their share of the development burden. This is the sort of infrastructure which has been jeopardised by neglect.

There are signs that the FFA is waking up to the threat. John O'Neill was never likely to be a peacemaker, but Ben Buckley is making the right noises about the need to re-engage. The new national youth league was a missed opportunity to give second-tier clubs an incentive. But an FFA Cup - which is back on the agenda - might bring them closer to the fold. A national second division is an even better solution to ending the mutual distrust, and re-energising the second level of the game.

Sadly, though, there's a feeling the FFA prefers to play a risky waiting game. Waiting for the ethnic clubs to perish, so the pyramid can be rebuilt in a more corporate-friendly image. It's a fraught strategy. Who's to say if Sydney Olympic, or Marconi, disappear, there will be someone else to take their place?

The game has a history, it has an infrastructure, it has a soul and it should be proud it does. Rugby forgot all this, and paid a price. Football has to learn from those mistakes.
 
P

Pete

Guest
I don't buy the 'save the old clubs' routine put up by Cockerill here.

They have a comp to field teams in, and many have successful licenced clubs that have strong membership. Sure they don't have the $3.0m budget to field star teams, but what is their pokie revenue these days?

They can establish themselves as the link between the areas they serve through junior sport, and the HAL clubs, if they choose to align themselves with the local HAL club or one they form an association with (like Blacktown Demons have done with the Mariners).

With the start of a national youth league comes the need for good scouting and recognition of talent at an earlier age than what the majority of the HAL clubs have been doing to this year.

That means knowing where the talent is, bringing it along with good coaching and development and all that means an academy.

The HAL clubs can set up their academies and have spots available for clubs that promote their juniors to the HAL (I think the Mariners have reserved spots for Spirit FC and Blacktown juniors in their academy?).

There is no way that the likes of Lawrie, Fergie and Tobin have the available time to suss out 15/16 yo boys as future Mariners or even Academy potential, but the clubs that these kids play for can recommend them, cutting out a lot of searching in the process.

In turn, the players will go back to their clubs and play through the grades and with the assistance of an Academy, develop to their full potential and start playing for Lightning, Marconi, Blacktown etc. before hopefully trialling for the Mariners or Sydney FC.

I fear that a national second tier comp. would not have anyone's interests to heart and would be an inferior comp. It would be fielded by players who have yet to hit their straps as a player or ones who tailing off their career or who can't make the grade at HAL level.

The 'old' clubs have the choice to stay at the level they are at or strive to associate themselves with a HAL club and have some better input into talent scouting, academy places and trail selections. And in turn getting better recognition for this important work.

I'm assuming, of course, that all clubs have the idea of promoting football and getting talented players as many opportunities as they can get, rather than being just 'old' clubs sitting on their haunches and having a whinge about their lack of political power they have these days in the FFA and beyond - through the article by Cockerill.

The State Associations have a role to play as well, by formatting better state comps, and making the career path more obvious for the players. But the politics still has a long way to being settled at that level, and I would suggest the FFA should make it clear to the State Associations that they need to be more active as peak bodies to warrant their affiliated status  with the FFA. How many 'State' associations in NSW for example?

While there is a worthy comparison to the old Rugby clubs like Randwick and the way they've been pushed aside by the Super 14 comp down the ladder, I would argue that there are many more players and junior/all age clubs playing football across the country than in Rugby.

Football players with talent will always get the recognition if their parents and the clubs they play for know who to talk to - and that is where the clubs like Blacktown, Marconi, Sydney Olympic etc. come to the fore.

Not so with Rugby, as the kids play for a junior club, may get some rep Rugby, may get spotted, but there's always the push by old school tie teams to have their kids put into clubs like Randwick, Gordon etc. and that keeps a lot of non aligned kids from getting any further. In Rugby, for every Ella there was always a Farr-Jones such is the class distinction within that code and its past reliance of the old school tie network.
 

Jesus

Jesus
We have a 2nd tier. We just have many of them. How would they be able to afford to travel nationwide if they struggle to afford to play other sydney teams. The state leagues do the job of a 2nd tier. Does the ffa need to invest more in it? Probably, like they do in grassroots. But the money nhas to be coming in to invest it.

What would be the point of a 2nd division without promotion/relegation? It would not be a 2nd tier, but a 2nd national league which would be competing with the a-league.

They seem to not be struggling with money, bar marconi, but instead with fans. That is a thing for the club to get out there and attract more fans. Like bling fc should be too
 

skilbeck

Well-Known Member
yeah i agree. the geography of Australia and the size of football in Australia means that a second tier is impossible at the moment. it might be something that may develop in the long term future as the footballing population, the number of teams and the money that is put into football expands. but at the moment, with a small footballing population located across the worlds 6th largest country, the money and the support isnt there for a second tier. and yes a second tier would need to have promotion and relegation.
 
P

Pete

Guest
skilbeck said:
yeah i agree. the geography of Australia and the size of football in Australia means that a second tier is impossible at the moment. it might be something that may develop in the long term future as the footballing population, the number of teams and the money that is put into football expands. but at the moment, with a small footballing population located across the worlds 6th largest country, the money and the support isnt there for a second tier. and yes a second tier would need to have promotion and relegation.

On that skillbeck, you are right, it isn't possible at this stage. But I'd suggest that it wouldn't be possible in the future either.

Looking at the other national football codes they have similar issues too. NRL has the NSWRL comp and the QRL comp to contend with. Many ex NRL players end up playing for the Newtown Jets or Balmain/Wests Tigers and the likes. But that comp doesn't rate a mention except when the likes of Tim Smith gets sent there for penance.

Same with the AFL, it has the old VFA comp and the SA & WA comps. as a lower standard of football. Many of those clubs are feeder clubs to the AFL clubs. But again, it doesn't rate a mention.

But notice that none of these 'second tier' comps are national. While that maybe because of where they originated from, the other issue would be the need for the clubs to have greater expenses for probably not much more exposure and money than they get now, should they go national.

The great expanse of our country makes travelling difficult, and costly for a team.

Also, without a motivating 'carrot' (ie promotion)to wag at any participating club in a second tier comp. why would they bother and instead wait for an opportunity to get involved in a HAL club syndicate - or wait for the HAL to fall over (as some of them did ever so eloquently when the HAL started out).
 

kevrenor

Well-Known Member
Jesus said:
We have a 2nd tier. We just have many of them. How would they be able to afford to travel nationwide if they struggle to afford to play other sydney teams. The state leagues do the job of a 2nd tier. Does the ffa need to invest more in it? Probably, like they do in grassroots. But the money nhas to be coming in to invest it.

What would be the point of a 2nd division without promotion/relegation? It would not be a 2nd tier, but a 2nd national league which would be competing with the a-league.

They seem to not be struggling with money, bar marconi, but instead with fans. That is a thing for the club to get out there and attract more fans. Like bling fc should be too

ALL NSWPL and many under that level are struggling badly.  It is so bad that several clubs have folded in recent years and now Marconi and Blacktown are very close to folding - both superb club grounds could be lost!  District clubs are on a year to year basis.

The Rooster has done his background well .... very much spot on in his analysis of the current situation and where it is heading!

FFA do need to re-engage but the State Assocs need to think outside the square too! My reservation is that a 2nd division is very premature ... lets get the Cup going first.
 

midfielder

Well-Known Member
kevrenor said:
Jesus said:
We have a 2nd tier. We just have many of them. How would they be able to afford to travel nationwide if they struggle to afford to play other sydney teams. The state leagues do the job of a 2nd tier. Does the ffa need to invest more in it? Probably, like they do in grassroots. But the money nhas to be coming in to invest it.

What would be the point of a 2nd division without promotion/relegation? It would not be a 2nd tier, but a 2nd national league which would be competing with the a-league.

They seem to not be struggling with money, bar marconi, but instead with fans. That is a thing for the club to get out there and attract more fans. Like bling fc should be too

ALL NSWPL and many under that level are struggling badly.  It is so bad that several clubs have folded in recent years and now Marconi and Blacktown are very close to folding - both superb club grounds could be lost!  District clubs are on a year to year basis.

The Rooster has done his background well .... very much spot on in his analysis of the current situation and where it is heading!

FFA do need to re-engage but the State Assocs need to think outside the square too! My reservation is that a 2nd division is very premature ... lets get the Cup going first.

Kev

I agree with you but it is the how that is the hard part.

I went to the Blacktown Demons V Marconi match on Saturday night. Very sad to see the Marconi team of Saturday and consider their teams of yester year. Did not see a player there I would call and say to LM come and look at this kid ..........very poor standard, even the coach of Blacktown was given a red card for arguing with the ref.

As Jesus said we have heaps of 2en tear comps................ but in some of the old NSL clubs is a football training and grounding that is not in the associations at this time.

There is no bigger supporter of the association than me, also no bigger knocker of the ethnic based NSL comp. Having said that MC & Kev make a very valid point, ........... these clubs do know how to prepare people for bigger things .... and to loose that knowledge would be a big loss.
 
P

Pete

Guest
kevrenor said:
Jesus said:
We have a 2nd tier. We just have many of them. How would they be able to afford to travel nationwide if they struggle to afford to play other sydney teams. The state leagues do the job of a 2nd tier. Does the ffa need to invest more in it? Probably, like they do in grassroots. But the money nhas to be coming in to invest it.

What would be the point of a 2nd division without promotion/relegation? It would not be a 2nd tier, but a 2nd national league which would be competing with the a-league.

They seem to not be struggling with money, bar marconi, but instead with fans. That is a thing for the club to get out there and attract more fans. Like bling fc should be too

ALL NSWPL and many under that level are struggling badly.  It is so bad that several clubs have folded in recent years and now Marconi and Blacktown are very close to folding - both superb club grounds could be lost!  District clubs are on a year to year basis.

The Rooster has done his background well .... very much spot on in his analysis of the current situation and where it is heading!

FFA do need to re-engage but the State Assocs need to think outside the square too! My reservation is that a 2nd division is very premature ... lets get the Cup going first.

Sorry Kevrenor and others. I didn't realise the poor financial situation of some of these older clubs. I thought that if they had a licenced club they'd be keeping their head above water with pokie revenue and other activities.
 

brett

Well-Known Member
2nd tier would likely bleed money and flop like the ARC.

The solution is to consolidate the talent pathway from grassroots to HAL and overseas. Get the football development plan happening as fast as possible to increase standard of players. The money for the state league clubs should be coming from transfer funds from Europe that filter down through the pyramid.
 

Jesus

Jesus
what is the major expediture problem for these clubs?
Salaries?
Facilities?
Hell if marconi etc cant afford their facilities why has Bling fc not showed an interest in any of them? To buy, no doubt out of uncle franks pocket, or to train at?
 

kevrenor

Well-Known Member
Spud said:
Sorry Kevrenor and others. I didn't realise the poor financial situation of some of these older clubs. I thought that if they had a licenced club they'd be keeping their head above water with pokie revenue and other activities.

The football clubs set up the licenced clubs to support the football, but all licensed clubs are now big businesses run by boards elected by those with the numbers among many tens of thousands of members.  Club Marconi has been in financial mud for some years and a key faction would like to ditch football, and sell of parts at least of the grounds.

Blacktown Demons Soccer (licensed) Club which recently became Demons Sports and fields a (spit) Rugby league side is nevertheless closer to the football ethos but very close (according to my informants) to going under.

Brett is quite right about pathways ... but how best to do it ... do the state league clubs have a part to play as midfielder mentioned.
 

Demented Freak

Active Member
kevrenor said:
Blacktown Demons Soccer (licensed) Club which recently became Demons Sports and fields a (spit) Rugby league side is nevertheless closer to the football ethos but very close (according to my informants) to going under.
Demon Sports went into Administration back in March.
 

Jesus

Jesus
The pokie tax has wiped a fair bit of cash from these clubs supporting state league teams, as well as rugby league teams.
 

midfielder

Well-Known Member
Kev

I think what MC was saying is that union has nothing to support it past S14 level.

In both the NRL & AFL in Sydney & Melbourne, playing for Parramatta as a kid is something to strive for and also a good way of finding and developing talent.

Whereas football at best will have three Sydney teams and many more juniors than league. It poses two problems where to the kids go who cannot make rep FC sides ( assuming they ever develop them) maybe off to other codes.

Also the grounds that teams like Marconi & Blacktown have are excellent and their coaches by and large are a cut above association level. It would be terrible to loose these assets; where are the future players going to come and strive to play for, and who is going to develop them at that elite level. The associations maybe but are they ready at that level and do they have the funding.

The youth league is part of the answer; but no where all of the answer, ..... also the age old problem of who pays............. not sure of the answer but can see were you and MC are coming from
 

skilbeck

Well-Known Member
there needs to be a set structure nationwide consisting of 4-5 tiers (no promotion and relegation unless within state)
A League
State Leagues
State League second tier (i.e. winter super league)
Local Leagues
Local Leagues - lower tiers

The bottom 4 do need to survive at all costs.
 

marinersman

Well-Known Member
MC raises very valid points. It's fine and dandy to have your young blokes play the the Lightnings and Spirits of this world, but unless they have the Olympics, Marconis and Demons to aspire to as a bridge to the HAL, we'll lose them.

There has to be a viable exciting step between the HAL and "third" tier Football. Otherwise we'll lose these young. talented boys to grog and girls. We must give them a pathway.

Whether people like it or not, the State League clubs are integral to the development of our players and must be supported. Otherwise where do the young boys go from our mediocre YL's to senior Football?

The FFA are doing a brilliant job with introducing the SSG and coaching programs for the youth. The one thing missing is the bridge between youth Football and the HAL.
 

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