HAL referees - inept or something else ?

Discussion in 'Australian Football' started by RECKY, Oct 23, 2019.


?

HAL Refs are

  1. Inept

    2 vote(s)
    22.2%
  2. FFA Stooges

    3 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. Stuck between a rock and a hard place

    4 vote(s)
    44.4%
  1. Capn Gus Bloodbeard

    Capn Gus Bloodbeard Well-Known Member

    this time we're in agreeance!
    I was in favour of VAR before it was implemented, but the inconsistency and bias is too severe - not to mention ruining the game by not being able to celebrate a goal properly
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Forum Phoenix

    Forum Phoenix Well-Known Member

    The idea of VAR seems like a no brainer in a sport where things happen at high speed, the referee can find himself a long way from play in the blink of an eye, or even completely unsighted.

    But it isn’t consistently cutting human error out of the loop at all, just moving it further down the chain because most of footballs rules are too subjective.

    Only way for it to work consistently is to limit what they adjudicate on to objective rules only like offside or ball over the line (easy now TB and Cap’n lol). We may not like players being pinged for being 3 inches offside, but var does technically work for this. Off the ball incidents it’s definitely useful for also.

    However fouls for pens are still regularly dubious and the handball one still seems to keep offering up contradictory interpretations and what things are checked or ignored seems to be arbitrary also. So we’re seeing lack of consistency that really is a detriment to the game I think. But I do think it can improve to the point of being a genuine net win.

    The idea of swings and roundabouts has always bugged me because its simply not true. Yes mistakes will sometimes go in your favour and sometimes against. But that doesn’t mean things will always even out. Or anything like that. It’s entirely possible to get a huge amount of decisions to go for or against you and have a massive imbalance either way.

    What I think is hardest to cop, is that while human error made live when things are at full speed etc is incredibly frustrating, it’s still a lot easier to cop than a hidden guy watching slow motion 20 times and still getting it wrong. That’s utterly deranging to fans imo.

    I like what they did with the rugby union World Cup. Having the transparency of hearing the communication between the TMO and the referee was for the most part very positive. But still plenty of shit moments there too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  3. Capn Gus Bloodbeard

    Capn Gus Bloodbeard Well-Known Member

    And I think that's why VAR has made the league look more biased.
    I know fans give referees a lot of heat online, but I still think that, more or less, fans accept that referees will make errors. Having to make hundreds of split second decisions in the heat of the moment with players trying to constantly get inside your head and undermine you, often having limited visibility, with weighing up the text of the laws, versus managing individual players on the field, versus match control, versus conflicting pressures from audiences and referee managers.....that they're going to get it wrong sometimes, but usually there's the idea that they're at least having an honest go of it.
    I know from my time refereeing, sometimes you just make the wrong decision. No different to players making the wrong decisions - sometimes it just happens (though the higher you go, the fewer of these you should make). Sometimes you know it's the wrong decision as soon as you give it.
    I know I've also had games where I've made several major bad calls and they've all gone against one team. No particular reason for that - just a bad day at the office.
    VAR has none of those 'heat of the moment' considerations. You can't put it down to an honest mistake in the moment So, when you look at a clearly wrong decision - and we've already had a number of those this season, and you eliminate 'heat of the moment', there's not much left. Sure, early stages, nerves and uncertainty about precisely when to interfere will have an impact, but after a while that doesn't hold. So, fans are left to answer their own question of 'why?'.
    And when the FFA not only doesn't hold referees (including VAR) accountable by making them spend a week or two on the sideline after terrible decisions. The full-time VAR in particular constantly makes appalling decisions. FFA doesn't come out and say 'it was wrong' - in fact, when they published 'The Whistle' they would either pretend clearly wrong decisions were correct, or just refuse to even address the bad ones (compared to the weekly blog by the MLS where they're very honest and upfront about whether a decision was correct, incorrect, debatable - or even 'correct but it shouldn't have taken nearly as long').
    So, by the VARs actions alone, it doesn't take much for 'intent' to become the only explanation that makes sense for wrong decisions.
    Then you have the culture of the FFA to cover up these errors - and it starts to look like not just one or two referees with a personal agenda, but something at the institutionalised level. I mean, don't forget when the WU player came on and interfered in the PA, something which requires a penalty kick but only an indirect was awarded - yet the ref and VAR were okay to referee next week despite literally not knowing the text of the laws. And nothing from the FFA.
    All I'm saying is that the way VAR is performed and the response of the FFA starts to give the perception of the above.
    And I think it's very safe to say - as an objective fact - that most of the incorrect VAR decisions have favoured the bigger team in a match. That has happened almost universally.
    It started to improve a little late last season, but clearly it's back to normal this season. Back when it was at its worst, you could predict which team would be screwed over (and I'm not talking about VAR correctly intervening here) simply by looking at which was the bigger club - and almost every time you'd be right.
    I mean, look at the handball we copped in the first game. I still maintain that the new laws allow for that to have NOT been a foul and I've argued my reasoning there, but we begrudgingly accepted it if it sets the standard. Not to mention the other one given that weekend.
    Both times the smaller team on the day copped the wrong end of the VAR.
    Last weekend, 2 very similar handball offences, neither awarded a penalty - and both committed by the bigger team on the day. And defending one, Delovski came out with a statement that is just ignorant of other incidents and even the laws itself.
    So, yeah, all this considered, things LOOK very dodgy.
    In the Australian print of the laws it used to have a phrase - BE FAIR and BE SEEN TO BE FAIR.
    Whether the FFA and it's referee accomplish the former is obviously highly contentious (at best). But I don't think it's contentious to say that they fail hard on the latter.
    But that's always been the case - even back when the MRP would charge players for incidents the ref missed, no different.
     
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  4. pjennings

    pjennings Well-Known Member

    I think it is only natural for the referee to make decisions in the way of the favourite. They see what they expect to see. That is normal. To then say clear and obvious error means that you are just reinforcing that natural bias

    i.e.
    Sydney/Victory will get a penalty in a 40/60 call and it won't be overturned.
    We won't get a penalty in a 60/40 call and it won't be overturned.

    Let the referee make his calls and live with it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. turbo

    turbo Well-Known Member

    Might be normal but isnt ok. They tend to do it a bit in the FFA cup as well. The professionals get the benefit of the doubt and the semi pros get seen as reckless or unskilled when there's a questionable tackle.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. pjennings

    pjennings Well-Known Member

    I'm not saying it's right but it is natural for people to see what they expect to see. The referee's training/review should correct that over time but when VAR condones it as too close to overturn there will be no change and the natural bias becomes entrenched.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. Pirate Pete

    Pirate Pete Well-Known Member

     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Pirate Pete

    Pirate Pete Well-Known Member

    Not Australia but...https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/50196446

    Penalty awarded against sub who was warming up.

    Eberwein was warming up behind the goal during a German second division game against Bochum on Friday when he kicked a wayward shot back into play.
    However, VAR spotted Eberwein had touched the ball before it had crossed the line, prompting referee Timo Gerach to give a penalty and show him a yellow card.
     
  9. Tevor

    Tevor Well-Known Member

    I'm actually OK with the hand ball Pen against Fenton, the absolute disgrace was Baccus last week and it is never mentioned. As Bozza said about Fenton when you have your arm up like that you ask for trouble and he didn't play at it and it changed the trajectory of an attacking cross. Baccus moved his shoulder towards the ball and gave it a gentle nudge in the right direction.

    As I mentioned before, the FFA seem to think WSW will single handed change the average crowds of the HAL this season so they need to be competitive so their crowds come back (they are probably right). They are not playing great however their keeper is MOTM every game as well as every 50/50 call going their way. The yellow against Ziggy yesterday was a disgrace, great tackle with good body positioning never a yellow or a free kick in any other league.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Capn Gus Bloodbeard

    Capn Gus Bloodbeard Well-Known Member

    I wonder if our guys were taking notes?
    It's the correct decision - mandatory PK here. Of course, the AR should have been able to call this (understandable if they were caught out of position or there was very little in it).

    Well, I'm firmly of the belief it never hit his hand - but if it did then it's probably the right decision. The LOTG state that it's usually not a foul if it deflects off your body onto your arm UNLESS your arm is out to the side making the body unnaturally bigger. (though that exclusion literally applies to anything, thus the 'deflects off your body' clause is completely meaningless).
    But it absolutely didn't change the trajectory of the cross - the ball was going out off his chest.

    Last week there were 2 clear handball fouls that should have been given - both times not giving it favoured the big team. Of course, these require the ref to get it wrong first.
    Delovski came out with some BS statement on one of them about how it was natural for his hand to be out like that for balance...piss off idiot, the laws are becoming far less tolerant of that - and if that's the case, then both penalties (including ours) in the first week shouldn't have been given. So, when the HAL referees advisor or whatever the hell he is doesn't understand the laws and/or is coming up with excuses to condone the blatant inconsistency, then nothing will improve.

    And yet Kim's elbow on Ziggy at the start - how many cards has Simon copped for such an elbow? And he did, what, 4 fouls in the first 25 minutes? Pity HAL refs have forgotten that 'persistent infringement' is a card.
     
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  11. true believer

    true believer Well-Known Member

    Gee just before kwebena's goal for west melbourne . where the ball is undisputably over the line in the keepers bread box but the var rule nothing .
    Another howler only the united win saved the ffa again from another shit storm
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. turbo

    turbo Well-Known Member

    Except it wasn’t indisputably completely over the line. The line they showed on TV was poorly positioned and made it look worse. The angle we had is terrible at showing depth the further your go from the ground or any reference points. If you look at it again the spot where his shorts and socks meet looks to be at the back edge of the line. Use that as a reference point closer to the ball and all of a sudden it’s not as clear cut as it might have seemed. I actually think it was the right call although I question if the likes of us or the nix would have benefited from it.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  13. Capn Gus Bloodbeard

    Capn Gus Bloodbeard Well-Known Member

    I agree - and I don't even think they should have gone down the path of messing around with lines.
    Another issue is that just to the right of the ball there's still a white pixelated blob, which makes it even harder.
    I think it was a close one, with a couple of inches in it at most, but that's from playing around with the lines they've set. Would have been a difficult one to spot as the AR as well.
    Anybody see the push on the NJ player that didn't cop a penalty? It's the sort of one where it just 'feels' like he chose to go down at the slightest contact.....but with the way VAR goes, you know if it was a CCM or WP player doing the push, it'd be a pen. The sort of incident where the Jets fans have every right to be upset about it, given it was a clear push.
    That's nothing compared to Ridenton's flying knee - how that wasn't a red, I'll never know.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019

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