CCM v An Orange

[Ads]

Yes!
Crazy isn’t it?
All your observations mentioned other coaches must be laughing at to some degree.

I’m all for Monty staying coach but if we have given up on the simple principle of moving the ball forward as a team or off the ball movement for effective triangles then we wont be able to have many decent team goals or counter attack goals.

Hopefully it is a simple as tiredness so no off the ball movement back and forth to create an option.
But we seem to rely on hitting feet in the middle and ‘playing the way you face’ back to the line behind and very slowly moving forward to the half way line which is where we go stagnant and can’t penetrate.

Like comments here as well despite the win it was very deflating football because it wasn’t fluent or penetrating.
It was a standoff with 2 coaches with a very strict plan for the game.

I don’t remember seeing one triangle 1/2 passing with a player running through.

. this may be related to my last post but i'm not sure

. early in the season, playing with what appears to have been superior fitness, we always had three players presenting for each ball. it allowed us to play through anything ... but it has been missing this year

. i saw evidence of it in the first half last night when everyone was fresh ... but it was only in the back third ... and it disappeared pretty quickly

. it appears that the call is to 'get/push forward' but the problem is they are not doing it with the ball. our DMs are being stranded with the ball and no forward passing options are making themselves available - they are forced to go back and with the DMs now under increased pressure the backs typically knock it long ... as our fowards sit in a straight four upfront the ball is almost always intercepted amplifying the pressure on our non-existent midfield again

 

[midfielder]

. ok i'm gonna need someone that understands formations and tactics to break this one down for me - why are we so often 4-2-4?

. is it no wonder we cannot control the midfield! so often you look across the front line and see 4 (and sometimes 5) all in a row. i can only assume that there is meant to be some rotation going on

. as some have pointed out we are relying on either of our strikers to drop back to take things forward ... but i feel this only happens successfully when they don't push forward rather than drop back. dropping back the momentum and odds are stacked against them

. the fact that they seem to be thinking the same, i s'pose, may be a good thing ... the problem is they are doing the same thing. a couple of times in the first half Farrell put in what i thought was a dangerous cross - we had three attackers in a straight line and none of them attacked the ball

... and don't even get me started on our panic-stations 7 in a row at the back with nobody to pick up their moves into vacant space

Astute observation noticed that myself... on Saturday sat on the west side [top layer] roughly half way between half way and penalty box... on the station [northern] side... got a good look at the formations especially as they tired in the second half.....Muller in particular plays up and so does Beni a lot of the time...

Just on Ruon.... his strength especially in the first half stopped a lot of attack... further he went forward with the ball... he needs some work for incoming high balls...

I would be tempted to bring Muller on in the last 20 to 25 minutes and play either Hall or Miller as DM and move Nizzy to an AM...

 

[Kilsin]

Watching the Beni goal back again on socials is it any wonder Cummings doesn’t have more goals? I count 5 or 6 players in front of him when he dropped the ball over the top for the goal. We’re used to seeing Urena drop back to more of a 10 or CM role to pick up the ball but that was DM territory.

I've noticed that too, Cummings is always very heavily marked and has a tough time trying to lose multiple defenders or get out of traffic usually ending up still skillfully offloading and in a few cases now, grabbing an assist!

He's quality.

 

[Tevor]

I find it interesting that many are mentioning they are tired. Didn’t we just have a full week off however we had time for a friendly match this week. If our players are so tired why did we do this. On Wednesday I get the tired excuse with the short turn around but I don’t see it as a valid excuse for yesterdays game. The friendly did not seem to add anything to our formation or fluid play, just made players tired. We do not have a large squad so some from yesterday would have played in the friendly.

I also note Monty didn’t put Goddard on in the closing stages yesterday, Monty not giving him a vote of confidence there and elected for less experienced players. Not a good sign for Cy.

 

[Ancient Mariner]

I find it interesting that many are mentioning they are tired. Didn’t we just have a full week off however we had time for a friendly match this week. If our players are so tired why did we do this. On Wednesday I get the tired excuse with the short turn around but I don’t see it as a valid excuse for yesterdays game. The friendly did not seem to add anything to our formation or fluid play, just made players tired. We do not have a large squad so some from yesterday would have played in the friendly.

Other half of the squad. Needed a run.

 

[FFC Mariner]

I notice that shit Neymar wasnt on the bench - injured "ill" or been worked out?

 

[turbo]

or been worked out?

That doesn’t stack up with some of the alternatives we had on the bench.

 

[LFCMariners]

Could've scored another goal or 2- easily. Disappointing again to finish just waiting for the clock to run out, rather than ending full of steam and looking like adding more goals to the tally at any moment. Thankfully the Roar are one of the worst performing sides in the comp (based on actual playing style as well as results) and so it didn't cost us points yet again. Even so, there were two Brisbane shots that came off the post, on another day those hit the back of the net and then we're wondering when the next CCM win is going to come?

Still, a win is 3 points and a change of fortunes- and no goals conceded in the dying minutes for a change. Or conceding ridiculous worldies.

Plus, getting a win is always a pleasant home-coming after a difficult couple of weeks on the road. Amazing how quickly the Roar ceased being a "bogey team" the moment CCM have a better squad who are playing better football than them- which itself has been an ultra rarity since the last time the Mariners beat them...

 

[Big Al]

Our 3rd win ever at home against the roar out of 27matches.

Great to finally beat them at home. The rest doesn’t really matter when our record is that bad against them.

Great mental victory

 

[Michael]

I notice that shit Neymar wasnt on the bench - injured "ill" or been worked out?

Going off your logic, 90% of current Brazilian players are a “shit neymar”

 

[FFC Mariner]

Its a joke on the hair and I didnt come up with it

 

[LFCMariners]

Our 3rd win ever at home against the roar out of 27matches.

Great to finally beat them at home. The rest doesn’t really matter when our record is that bad against them.

Great mental victory

The last time was 2013. When was the time before that?

 

[turbo]

Amazing how quickly the Roar ceased being a "bogey team" the moment CCM have a better squad who are playing better football than them- which itself has been an ultra rarity since the last time the Mariners beat them...

Even when we've both been crap like when they had the ancient striker (Maccarone I think) the difference was they had Jamie Young mopping up after them and keeping them off the bottom of the ladder. Amongst other changes they let him walk and it's costing them.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

My 2 cents BG.

For mine it's part the flat 442, but the lions share of the answer to your question, is lack of ball speed/transition, lack of passing range/skill, lack of width and pace.

Regardless of any formation, to get in behind, you will still typically either need to turn over possession and move the ball quickly, or switch the play faster than your opponents defence can slide, or you need wide players with pace and enough dribbling skills to hug the sideline and get to the byline and or cut back in, or creative players who can consistently play defence splitting passes.

Regarding our width and pace...

Only Miller consistently does this well for us. Farrell lacks the skill. Mueller lacks the pace. Goddard lacks the pace and strength. Moresche lacks the pace and strength (though I still think he might get there) Beni isn't quite fast enough to simply go round players, but he does turn well, so is doing a god job of cutting back inside and dribbling past players.

Moving the ball...

But if/when you can't create space to progress into your opponents final third via your speed and width, then you have to move the ball itself quickly. If you move the ball slower and haven't forced the defenders to turn and chase, then unless they're defence is an absolute rabble, the defenders will simply hold their line and any attackers trying to make runs will be forced to check their runs before they go offside, or slow and either end up running alongside the ball carrier or alongside a defender (and you can't pass to them either way) - so you end up with a flat line of...2, 3 or in our case 4 attackers...

When this gets too annoying, our forwards are currently dropping back to get on the ball and get a chance to face forward. Effectively they're replacing our missing number 10. First it was Marcos doing it. Now Cum dog is doing it too. They read the game and do it by necessity imo. Luckily for us they both do it pretty well and will continue to fashion chances for us I think. But it means Cum Dog or Urena is solo are more easily marked out and are harder targets to hit. You see how they both keep "JUST" missing passes to each other.

Passing range and Defence splitting balls...

Currently, a LOT of our forwards runs are still being ignored and too many through balls are mishit. Because most of our players simply don't have the passing range. And for mine, Olly who does, is often pressed so he can't, or he is simply too slow to distribute. Think of Amini in the Sydney game playing at DM. And how quickly he would turn and begin their attack with quick raking passes that create space and opportunity for players to run with defenders forced to turn. Or think of the absence of the switch of play ball Dutchy used to spray or... Cummings angled ball out wide for Beni's assist is also a prime example. We are not putting a lot of quality ball through for our forwards. We have no Brattan, Ninkovic, Castro or indeed even a Jay Oshea. The best at putting quality balls into to our forwards, are unfortunately, also our two forwards.

What to do? A change of shape could help with some issues, but hurt in others. People often make too much of it imho. It's not a magical formula. You're always robbing from Peter to pay Paul. Everything comes with a cost. So for mine, what matters most are the principles of good attacking play that operate inside any formation.

 

[Forum Phoenix]

On the game.

- Beni - was very good in attack and defence and scored a vital opening goal. 3 points
- Nizz - won ball for us six or seven times. And drew fould and kept it under high pressure several other times. VITAL. 2 points.
- The last point I could split with Rowles or a hard working game and assist by Cumdog, but I'll give to Birra. Without him. We don't get 3 points.

For mine, errmmmm, so many whingers. I'll take a 2 - 1 win over our bogey team during the unluckiest spell I've seen for a good side in I don't how f**king long and CELEBRATE.

Biggest mistake was taking our foot off the throat after the second goal and letting them play. We MUST learn to believe in ourselves and be ruthless. ONE MORE goal and it was OVER. But one more to them... and they're right back in it.

But... despite our subs coming 8 minutes too late. We managed the last 15 plus *six - are you f**king kidding me- minutes really well.

3 points. Bring on Wednesday. The doubters are about to be proved wrong. We're going to roll Victory. Put money on it. I will be.

 

[true believer]

I find it interesting that many are mentioning they are tired. Didn’t we just have a full week off however we had time for a friendly match this week. If our players are so tired why did we do this. On Wednesday I get the tired excuse with the short turn around but I don’t see it as a valid excuse for yesterdays game. The friendly did not seem to add anything to our formation or fluid play, just made players tired. We do not have a large squad so some from yesterday would have played in the friendly.

I also note Monty didn’t put Goddard on in the closing stages yesterday, Monty not giving him a vote of confidence there and elected for less experienced players. Not a good sign for Cy.

horses for courses ,our problem is physicality hence roux and smith ,with roun having to play the 90(97)

 

[Ancient Mariner]

My 2 cents BG.

For mine it's part the flat 442, but the lions share of the answer to your question, is lack of ball speed/transition, lack of passing range/skill, lack of width and pace.

Regardless of any formation, to get in behind, you will still typically either need to turn over possession and move the ball quickly, or switch the play faster than your opponents defence can slide, or you need wide players with pace and enough dribbling skills to hug the sideline and get to the byline and or cut back in, or creative players who can consistently play defence splitting passes.

Regarding our width and pace...

Only Miller consistently does this well for us. Farrell lacks the skill. Mueller lacks the pace. Goddard lacks the pace and strength. Moresche lacks the pace and strength (though I still think he might get there) Beni isn't quite fast enough to simply go round players, but he does turn well, so is doing a god job of cutting back inside and dribbling past players.

Moving the ball...

But if/when you can't create space to progress into your opponents final third via your speed and width, then you have to move the ball itself quickly. If you move the ball slower and haven't forced the defenders to turn and chase, then unless they're defence is an absolute rabble, the defenders will simply hold their line and any attackers trying to make runs will be forced to check their runs before they go offside, or slow and either end up running alongside the ball carrier or alongside a defender (and you can't pass to them either way) - so you end up with a flat line of...2, 3 or in our case 4 attackers...

When this gets too annoying, our forwards are currently dropping back to get on the ball and get a chance to face forward. Effectively they're replacing our missing number 10. First it was Marcos doing it. Now Cum dog is doing it too. They read the game and do it by necessity imo. Luckily for us they both do it pretty well and will continue to fashion chances for us I think. But it means Cum Dog or Urena is solo are more easily marked out and are harder targets to hit. You see how they both keep "JUST" missing passes to each other.

Passing range and Defence splitting balls...

Currently, a LOT of our forwards runs are still being ignored and too many through balls are mishit. Because most of our players simply don't have the passing range. And for mine, Olly who does, is often pressed so he can't, or he is simply too slow to distribute. Think of Amini in the Sydney game playing at DM. And how quickly he would turn and begin their attack with quick raking passes that create space and opportunity for players to run with defenders forced to turn. Or think of the absence of the switch of play ball Dutchy used to spray or... Cummings angled ball out wide for Beni's assist is also a prime example. We are not putting a lot of quality ball through for our forwards. We have no Brattan, Ninkovic, Castro or indeed even a Jay Oshea. The best at putting quality balls into to our forwards, are unfortunately, also our two forwards.

What to do? A change of shape could help with some issues, but hurt in others. People often make too much of it imho. It's not a magical formula. You're always robbing from Peter to pay Paul. Everything comes with a cost. So for mine, what matters most are the principles of good attacking play that operate inside any formation.

Good analysis (as usual) FP, and food for thought. As you say a lotto our players do not have the passing range. The crosses being made from wide, while happening, were not great quality, and the occasional through ball was usually overhit, while many other runs were, I thought, being ignored. On reflection I think it was not so much being ignored but players were waiting too long to see where the run was going before attempting a pass. The pass was then not made because, by then the channel had closed or the runner was offside. This usually leads to fans around me screaming at our forwards to stay on side (very annoying).
What you describe as a lack of speed I see more as a lack of speed in decision making. Would it be preferable for passes to be made into likely gaps in anticipation of it being run onto rather than trying to feed specific runs? I am thinking that with more time together and understanding would lead to a greater knowledge of what was likely good gap to pass to with a good chance of a striker finding it.
I am still trying to understand our team's front third attacking tactics.

 

[Ironbark]

Nicely reasoned and summed up FP.

Watching this game our terrible transition play was a highlight. We allow their defenders to get back but with the already discussed issues with forwards having to drop back and receive and then go forward, create and score - it's hard enough but can't succeed at that when the opposition has had time to get their defenders set.
We really need to focus on transition plays I feel. What's the plan when we pinch the ball? What's the plan when we turn it over? I'd love to start seeing clear plans, and more than one, when these things happen.
As someone mentioned already it's a fairly *new* attack on the field atm with Cummings new, Nikolai and Beni just becoming regulars.

We have a good team and when these players learn to read each other - especially forward runs - and trust the pass, we'll win plenty. You'd have to think lower confidence is a factor currently too.

 

[FFC Mariner]

Speed of thought and boldness is a function of confidence.
When we click, it's very good but when you are thinking negatively, you take that extra millisecond to over think it and the opportunity is gone.

 

[pjennings]

Speed of thought and boldness is a function of confidence.
When we click, it's very good but when you are thinking negatively, you take that extra millisecond to over think it and the opportunity is gone.

Beni's goal a case in point. Jason was deep, got the ball, looked up and immediately played the ball in front of Beni. If he dwelt on the ball the chance is gone.